W.O.M.P. Supercharger for 2.0L proteges
November-25th-2004, 06:27 PM
#316
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 143
updates? The dogs grow hungry.
November-25th-2004, 07:23 PM
#317
The man behind the mask
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
nope, won't have any updates until after this weekend. DaveB won't be able to get anything back to me until nextweek at the earliest.
I've had to learn to be patient. It's a virtue!
I've had to learn to be patient. It's a virtue!
December-1st-2004, 02:12 PM
#318
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Huntsville, Al
Posts: 119
His head is big I have seen it in person. Ha ha aha (running for my life)
Last edited by jonesboy35757; December-1st-2004 at 02:18 PM.
December-3rd-2004, 02:31 AM
#319
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 50
Any news from DaveB ? has the wizard machineist managed to solve the problems ?
December-3rd-2004, 04:01 AM
#320
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
Posts: 73
I had a downer last week - An F-250 came to a dead stop in front of me for fear of a deer, wiping out my bumper, pass. headlight, hood, and radiator & support. Really bummed out my Thanksgiving. Repairs are being done through insurance.
I know I'm thread-jacking here, but for a reason.
The rental I've got during repairs is a Mazda 6 with the 2.3. After having my 2.0 Pro LX, This is GREAT! Matty, You Have to work on the 2.3 next. Don't delay. If, as I understand, the same engine is used in the Escape, Tribute, etc., you'll have people beating a path to your door.
Don't let the details weigh you down! Keep the faith! WOMP us!
I know I'm thread-jacking here, but for a reason.
The rental I've got during repairs is a Mazda 6 with the 2.3. After having my 2.0 Pro LX, This is GREAT! Matty, You Have to work on the 2.3 next. Don't delay. If, as I understand, the same engine is used in the Escape, Tribute, etc., you'll have people beating a path to your door.
Don't let the details weigh you down! Keep the faith! WOMP us!
Last edited by OldPro; December-9th-2004 at 03:49 AM.
December-3rd-2004, 06:22 AM
#321
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 999
^good point - but don't let up on the current project!^
December-3rd-2004, 08:38 AM
#322
The man behind the mask
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
hahaha, I'm going to work on the 2.3L kit soon after I get the 2.0L get well into swing.
December-8th-2004, 04:39 PM
#323
The man behind the mask
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
I'd like to augment my first post with this but it is too long when combined so I'll be posting it here as a FAQ for supercharging.
This next serious of Q&A is direct from Powerdyne's website. I think they will give you a better overall understanding of how a supercharger works and why this is a great blower for this application. *credit given to powerdyne*
Q: What exactly does a supercharger do?
A: A supercharger forces additional air and fuel into the engine. This occurs when the engine is under full throttle or under load, not at normal cruise or most normal driving. A large displacement engine makes more power than a small displacement engine because it can convert larger amounts of fuel and air into energy. A supercharger allows a smaller engine to do the same thing but only when extra power is actually needed.
Q: What is boost?
A: Boost is the amount of pressure (in pounds per square inch) that the supercharger provides. The air that goes into an unblown (unsupercharged) engine is drawn in by the vacuum created when the piston goes down in the cylinder bore. This air goes into the unsupercharged engine at amospheric pressure which at sea level is 14.7 psi (pounds per square inch).
On a blown engine the boost is the amount of additional pressure the inlet charge has over atmospheric that goes into the engine. So if your blower makes ten pounds of boost that means your inlet charge is atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi) plus the ten psi of boost for a total of 24.7 psi.
Q: How much boost can you normally run?
A: Six to nine pounds (psi) is normally a safe level for most stock engines. Running more than this will usually require a reduction in compression ratio. Centrifugal superchargers, such as the Powerdyne, can typically safely run more boost than a roots type blower (GMC, B&M, Weiand, etc.) due to the fact that the pressure is created inside the blower instead of in the manifold. For additional information, see Internal Compression Superchargers.
Every engine is different and some engines are more tolerant of boost than others.
Q: How much compression ratio can you run?
A: Again, this can vary from engine to engine but a good rule of thumb with a Powerdyne Supercharger is you can run about nine pounds of boost on a 9:1 engine. If you have more compression ratio then you need to run less boost. If you have less compression ratio then you can run more boost.
In ideal circumstances you would like to have as much compression ratio and as much boost as you can run without detonation.
Q: How do you change the boost?
A: On any belt driven blower, such as the Powerdyne, you can change the amount of boost by changing the size of the pulley on the blower. The smaller the pulley the faster the blower runs and the more boost it makes.
Currently Powerdyne offers two boost levels, a six pound unit and a 9 pound unit.
Q: What is an "Internal Compression Supercharger?"
A: An Internal Compresssion Supercharger actually compresses the air inside the supercharger. It functions like an air compressor. The Powerdyne Supercharger is an internal compression supercharger. External compression blowers, like the well known GMC, and the B&M, Weiand, and other roots type blowers, are just air pumps. They pump air into the manifold and cylinders and the actual air compression takes place there.
Q: What difference does it make?
A: A lot. Internal compression blowers do not heat up the inlet charge to the same extent that external compression blowers do. A cooler intake charge means a denser volume of air per pound of boost goes into the engine which produces more power. This brings up an interesting point. Because a dense charge of air can have the same psi as a less dense charge of air, this means you can have two blowers that both may produce 7 pounds of boost but the Powerdyne internal compression blower making 7 psi of boost is going to make substantially more power than a roots blower making seemingly the same 7 psi of boost. Even though the pressure is the same there is less air in the charge coming from the roots blower. A roots blower has to make one or two more pounds of boost than a Powerdyne to offset this charge-air temperature difference.
For this same reason you can run more boost on a given engine with a Powerdyne blower than you can with a roots type blower. Usually one to two more pounds of boost.
Q: Doesn't running boost on an engine put more strain on the engine's parts?
A: Not necessarily. RPM is what kills engine parts. Typically, an unblown engine has to run up to 7,000 or 8,000 rpm to make any real power. At these high speeds you need a special crank, rods, pistons, rocker arms, valves, valve springs, and on and on. But a blower substantially increases power and torque at much lower rpm's. You usually don't have to run a blown engine over about 6,000 rpm to make maximum power. At these speeds stock engine components are usually more than adequate.
Additionally an engine sees maximum load on the components at the moment the piston changes speed from going up in the cylinder to going down. There is a commonly held theory, too complicated to go into here, that increasing the combustion pressure, which a supercharger does, actually reduces this maximum load when piston travel changes from up to down. Under this theory, at comparable rpm's a blown engine is easier on parts than an unblown engine.
In actuality, as long as detonation is controlled, you rarely have any engine failures with a blower.
Q: What happens if my blower drive belt breaks? How do I get home?
A: With a Powerdyne Supercharger if the blower drive belt breaks the car will drive exactly like it did without the blower. It will run perfectly normally. However blower drive belt breakage is very rare. These belts typically last for 50,000 miles or more.
Q: OK, you have convinced me that a centrifugal internal compression blower is the way to go. What makes the Powerdyne better than the other centrifugal blowers on the market?
A: Several things. Here's a list of the most important features that Powerdyne offers that the others don't:
1. A quiet positive internal step-up drive. All centrifugal blowers have a step-up drive inside them that causes the impeller to run at substantially higher speeds than the blower input pulley. This is because the blower impeller runs so much faster than engine speed that there is no practical way to achieve this speed with external pulleys. The Powerdyne uses an extremely strong cog toothed drive belt inside the blower to increase the impeller speed. This belt is very tough yet very quiet. One competitive centrifugal blower uses gears, which while they are as positive as Powerdyne's belt, can be quite noisy. Another competitive centrifugal blower uses a friction drive. While this system is quiet, it can slip under increased loads and when this happens internal damage to the supercharger usually occurs.
2. No external oil supply required. The internal drive belt used by Powerdyne requires no lubrication. All other centrifugal blowers require an external oil supply. Not only does this require extra work during installation it also adds heat to the blower which in turn adds heat to the inlet charge. As mentioned earlier in this FAQ, additional heat in the inlet charge reduces the density of the charge which in turn means less power. Engine oil, even with an external cooler, can run from 180° and even higher.
3. Unique impeller design. Other centrifugal blowers are running impellers that were originally designed forty years ago. Turbocharger technology in recent years has seen tremendous gains in impeller design and the impeller in a centrifugal supercharger is very similar to that in a turbocharger. The Powerdyne Supercharger features a state-of-the-art Hyperdyne Impeller which produces a cooler inlet charge (which means more power) and can also actually deliver more total air at a given blower speed which translates into more power and torque, especially at lower engine speeds. The combination of reduced heat in the blower as a result of no engine oil plus the reduced charge temperature because of the advanced impeller design adds up to substantially more power at a given boost level than in other centrifugal blowers.
4. Larger inlet. The air inlet on the Powerdyne Supercharger is 3-1/2 inches in diameter compared to only 3 inches on most other centrifugal blowers. The outlet duct is 3 inches in diameter while others are only 2-3/4, which permits up to a 77mm mass flow sensor with no modifications, and can be used with even larger units. These are very important differences because more air flow (which is possible with larger inlet and outlet ducts) means more power. And more power is what you get with the Powerdyne Supercharger system.
This next serious of Q&A is direct from Powerdyne's website. I think they will give you a better overall understanding of how a supercharger works and why this is a great blower for this application. *credit given to powerdyne*
Q: What exactly does a supercharger do?
A: A supercharger forces additional air and fuel into the engine. This occurs when the engine is under full throttle or under load, not at normal cruise or most normal driving. A large displacement engine makes more power than a small displacement engine because it can convert larger amounts of fuel and air into energy. A supercharger allows a smaller engine to do the same thing but only when extra power is actually needed.
Q: What is boost?
A: Boost is the amount of pressure (in pounds per square inch) that the supercharger provides. The air that goes into an unblown (unsupercharged) engine is drawn in by the vacuum created when the piston goes down in the cylinder bore. This air goes into the unsupercharged engine at amospheric pressure which at sea level is 14.7 psi (pounds per square inch).
On a blown engine the boost is the amount of additional pressure the inlet charge has over atmospheric that goes into the engine. So if your blower makes ten pounds of boost that means your inlet charge is atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi) plus the ten psi of boost for a total of 24.7 psi.
Q: How much boost can you normally run?
A: Six to nine pounds (psi) is normally a safe level for most stock engines. Running more than this will usually require a reduction in compression ratio. Centrifugal superchargers, such as the Powerdyne, can typically safely run more boost than a roots type blower (GMC, B&M, Weiand, etc.) due to the fact that the pressure is created inside the blower instead of in the manifold. For additional information, see Internal Compression Superchargers.
Every engine is different and some engines are more tolerant of boost than others.
Q: How much compression ratio can you run?
A: Again, this can vary from engine to engine but a good rule of thumb with a Powerdyne Supercharger is you can run about nine pounds of boost on a 9:1 engine. If you have more compression ratio then you need to run less boost. If you have less compression ratio then you can run more boost.
In ideal circumstances you would like to have as much compression ratio and as much boost as you can run without detonation.
Q: How do you change the boost?
A: On any belt driven blower, such as the Powerdyne, you can change the amount of boost by changing the size of the pulley on the blower. The smaller the pulley the faster the blower runs and the more boost it makes.
Currently Powerdyne offers two boost levels, a six pound unit and a 9 pound unit.
Q: What is an "Internal Compression Supercharger?"
A: An Internal Compresssion Supercharger actually compresses the air inside the supercharger. It functions like an air compressor. The Powerdyne Supercharger is an internal compression supercharger. External compression blowers, like the well known GMC, and the B&M, Weiand, and other roots type blowers, are just air pumps. They pump air into the manifold and cylinders and the actual air compression takes place there.
Q: What difference does it make?
A: A lot. Internal compression blowers do not heat up the inlet charge to the same extent that external compression blowers do. A cooler intake charge means a denser volume of air per pound of boost goes into the engine which produces more power. This brings up an interesting point. Because a dense charge of air can have the same psi as a less dense charge of air, this means you can have two blowers that both may produce 7 pounds of boost but the Powerdyne internal compression blower making 7 psi of boost is going to make substantially more power than a roots blower making seemingly the same 7 psi of boost. Even though the pressure is the same there is less air in the charge coming from the roots blower. A roots blower has to make one or two more pounds of boost than a Powerdyne to offset this charge-air temperature difference.
For this same reason you can run more boost on a given engine with a Powerdyne blower than you can with a roots type blower. Usually one to two more pounds of boost.
Q: Doesn't running boost on an engine put more strain on the engine's parts?
A: Not necessarily. RPM is what kills engine parts. Typically, an unblown engine has to run up to 7,000 or 8,000 rpm to make any real power. At these high speeds you need a special crank, rods, pistons, rocker arms, valves, valve springs, and on and on. But a blower substantially increases power and torque at much lower rpm's. You usually don't have to run a blown engine over about 6,000 rpm to make maximum power. At these speeds stock engine components are usually more than adequate.
Additionally an engine sees maximum load on the components at the moment the piston changes speed from going up in the cylinder to going down. There is a commonly held theory, too complicated to go into here, that increasing the combustion pressure, which a supercharger does, actually reduces this maximum load when piston travel changes from up to down. Under this theory, at comparable rpm's a blown engine is easier on parts than an unblown engine.
In actuality, as long as detonation is controlled, you rarely have any engine failures with a blower.
Q: What happens if my blower drive belt breaks? How do I get home?
A: With a Powerdyne Supercharger if the blower drive belt breaks the car will drive exactly like it did without the blower. It will run perfectly normally. However blower drive belt breakage is very rare. These belts typically last for 50,000 miles or more.
Q: OK, you have convinced me that a centrifugal internal compression blower is the way to go. What makes the Powerdyne better than the other centrifugal blowers on the market?
A: Several things. Here's a list of the most important features that Powerdyne offers that the others don't:
1. A quiet positive internal step-up drive. All centrifugal blowers have a step-up drive inside them that causes the impeller to run at substantially higher speeds than the blower input pulley. This is because the blower impeller runs so much faster than engine speed that there is no practical way to achieve this speed with external pulleys. The Powerdyne uses an extremely strong cog toothed drive belt inside the blower to increase the impeller speed. This belt is very tough yet very quiet. One competitive centrifugal blower uses gears, which while they are as positive as Powerdyne's belt, can be quite noisy. Another competitive centrifugal blower uses a friction drive. While this system is quiet, it can slip under increased loads and when this happens internal damage to the supercharger usually occurs.
2. No external oil supply required. The internal drive belt used by Powerdyne requires no lubrication. All other centrifugal blowers require an external oil supply. Not only does this require extra work during installation it also adds heat to the blower which in turn adds heat to the inlet charge. As mentioned earlier in this FAQ, additional heat in the inlet charge reduces the density of the charge which in turn means less power. Engine oil, even with an external cooler, can run from 180° and even higher.
3. Unique impeller design. Other centrifugal blowers are running impellers that were originally designed forty years ago. Turbocharger technology in recent years has seen tremendous gains in impeller design and the impeller in a centrifugal supercharger is very similar to that in a turbocharger. The Powerdyne Supercharger features a state-of-the-art Hyperdyne Impeller which produces a cooler inlet charge (which means more power) and can also actually deliver more total air at a given blower speed which translates into more power and torque, especially at lower engine speeds. The combination of reduced heat in the blower as a result of no engine oil plus the reduced charge temperature because of the advanced impeller design adds up to substantially more power at a given boost level than in other centrifugal blowers.
4. Larger inlet. The air inlet on the Powerdyne Supercharger is 3-1/2 inches in diameter compared to only 3 inches on most other centrifugal blowers. The outlet duct is 3 inches in diameter while others are only 2-3/4, which permits up to a 77mm mass flow sensor with no modifications, and can be used with even larger units. These are very important differences because more air flow (which is possible with larger inlet and outlet ducts) means more power. And more power is what you get with the Powerdyne Supercharger system.
December-8th-2004, 06:28 PM
#324
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lincroft, NJ
Posts: 1,105
Thanks for posting this, it really helps in understanding everything and makes me even more anxious for you to get this completed!
December-8th-2004, 07:11 PM
#325
The man behind the mask
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
good deal, I'm glad you found it helpful.
December-9th-2004, 07:02 AM
#326
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Posts: 809
good stuff Matty
December-9th-2004, 03:35 PM
#327
Rotor Head
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,309
so you wouldnt reccomend a 10.0:1 compression with this kit?
December-9th-2004, 05:31 PM
#328
The man behind the mask
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
not really...unless you wanted low boost like 4psi or so. I've always had 8.5:1 CR motors in my high boosting turbo-fords but after speaking with JE, Crower, Pauter and Weisco they seem to think materials are good enough now to run 9.1:1 without any problems...I would try to stay under 9.5:1 if you're planning on boostuing....remember boost from my supercharger is a bit more than a turbo....Big difference between 6psi on a T-25 and 6psi on a T4 super 60!
December-9th-2004, 06:25 PM
#329
YEAH WOW CHILDISH!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: under your bed
Posts: 1,727
so no more updates, ill be honest the only reason i still come to this sight is to check on your progress, lol.
December-9th-2004, 09:09 PM
#330
The man behind the mask
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
no updates yet. Still waiting to get everything back from Dave...haven't even heard from him. No'one answers my pm's.
Aw man, there are more reasons to hang around than this flash in the pan!
Aw man, there are more reasons to hang around than this flash in the pan!