2.0L Supercharger
 

THIS PROJECT IS NOT DEAD!!!


Hey Roddimus (aka, Bowler) tell us more about the Supercharger here.. since the other forum killed your account over there.

There are still people interested in the supercharger, so I thought we could continue the conversation here.

what supercharger? what?

yup yup...I would like to go into some greater detail. This may help clear up some issues for some people.

I guess I should start with a description of what I hope to accomplish first and that will make other details obvious later on.

I want to create a supercharger kit for the 2.0L Protege that is BOLT ON, INTERCOOLED, RELIABLE, REQUIRES NO OTHER UPGRADES, WILL NOT BLOW THE MOTOR!!!

I would honestly like to see 200whp for $2500. That being said.

Eaton was my first supercharger source. After speaking with their R&D department at Magnusson Products (only eaton re-seller) they basically mentioned the MP62 fouth generation blower was the way to go for a roots style blower. It was a very large blower for the application and would produce more power than the motor will handle but they felt that having the flexibility of raising the power if the user wanted to was better than maxing out a smaller blower. An MP62 is actually a little cheaper than a MP45. However, neither will be used in this project. After talking numbers with the guy the best price they were willing to give me on the superchargers was $1200. For reference I can buy T3/T4 turbo's all day long for less than $370. In order for this kit to be possible cost will HAVE to be kept at a bare minimum while providing a great VALUE. I am in talks with ATI Prochargers now about their PS1C supercharger. It is their smallest blower and is a great unit. My main concern at this point becomes jack-shaft moutning. Some chargers do not like to be mounted and run off a jack-shaft (long tube running across the front of the motor). Once I get to speak with the people at ATI I'll update more with better details.

This CAN be done. It just takes someone with a lot of free time on their hands to get it done!

I know that everyone says this and it's often considered a joke, but I'm seriously thinking about starting a "supercharger design fund" if anyone is willing to donate a few bucks to help me really get into this. Another great way to help fund this project is to have me powdercoat something for you!! That's is my extra income and I can put it into R&D on this kit. If you want to see a supercharged P5 real soon then you should be sending me your stuff to be powdercoated right away!

Roddimus: glad you made it on to (your) thread :D I figured I would start it up over here since it will now die over on the other forum and I hate to see the interest in this project die along with it. I'm still interested in following this supercharger conversation as I may be in the market down the road.

ps: I didn't realize you powder-coated. I'll keep that in mind!!

yeah, check the vendor section for my powderocating thread or you can go visit www.mullisbrothersracing.com for my new website. I'm trying to get the content filled out as aquickly as possible but it takes time with so many projects going on.

hmmmm powdercoating, i need alot powdercoated, lol whats going rate on powdercoating?

Very nice. =) I may either donate some cash after I get the new engine dropped into my RX7 to you, or if I can get a spare set of front calipers for my P5, I may have you powder coat a set of those, too. =) Dunno how much that would cost me, but we'll see what my finances look like at the middle of next month. I look foreward to hearing more about the development of this kit!

I can go over powdercoating prices in my powdercoating thread or you can contact Chris @ my website and he'll be happy to get you guys squared away.

Thanks for the backing guys. With undertaking a project this size I'm going to need help and I'm not one to forget who helps me out. Once we get some preliminary things squared away I will get under way with this and hopefully can have it turned around and tested in under 6 months.

i'm behind ya all the way!

behind me financially?? I'm still in need of those fans!! Maybe that will be part of the kit.

from roddimus prime:

I'm talking with different manufacturers but price is NOT going to be pretty. $1400 for an eaton and $2500 for an ATI....
MazdaMattyP5: that is JUST THE BLOWER, nothing else.

of course! heheehe.

i'd love to see a reasonably priced supercharger for our cars...and hey, everyone needs fans right?;)

Let's define "reasonably priced" for a minute shall we?

I will be as open and honest with everyone as possible. My main goal for this kit was to provide a good boost in power for less than the price of a decent turbo kit. My price target is < $3000 for an intercooled version.

I feel that any supercharger should be intercooled as they tend to put out a little more heat than a similarly sized turbo. That being said, it is not easy finding a company who is willing to give up a discount on so few units. I mentioned selling appx. 20 kits in the $2800-3000 range. I think this is stretching it a bit as I have not seen much (if any) sincere dedication from anyone to buy one.

Another hurdle I'm having to jump is the fact that I will require a lot of testing to find out what works best and what will be a better investment for you guys. I can take a used buick supercharger and mock it up in about a week to work....but how well it will work and how long it will last is another story. If I'm going to put my name on something it's going to be something I believe in and something I'll stand behind. I want it to work and work well.

Cost is a hugh factor right now as the cheapest supercharger core I can get will cost $1400 and it will NOT be a pretty install. It will require re-wiring of several sensors (TB has to be moved and TPS will have to have extra length spliced in). I want a self-contained blower that requires no tapping of the oil pan. This, if done incorrectly, can cause bad problems and I'm not willing to take that risk when a customer goes to install it.


I could go on for hours but it all boils down to this:

How much is this worth to you guys who are serious about buying it? I know for a fact I can make it for $3800+ and it will be awesome. I'd expect just as much power from a turbo with a lot more room for growth. Most people would prefer to just go with a proven boosting method (turbo) but some people will always march to a different beat. Honestly, what do you guys think is a fair price for something like this....keeping in mind I will be spending months of my personal time to develop, test, build, tune and market this.

Any ideas?? Anyone have a hook-up at a blower company that can score me some $600-800 blowers??

Roddimus ,this sounds very interesting ,a supercharger for the 2.0 engine , I could be interested in the future . .keep us informed .

there's nothing to be updated until we hammer down a firm price point that I'll be able to work within. After that it's just a matter of seeing which company wants to play ball and sell some chargers.

Under the three grand mark is pretty good, given that all of the turbo kits for it mark above three grand. I'll talk to some of my contacts to see if any of them know of any cheap sources for superchargers. =)

that would be awesome. I've spoken with Eaton, Vortech, Paxton and ATI. None are below $1200. I would rather stay away from the roots blowers after seeing what I've seen on mine, but it may be that the Eaton MP62 is the only affordable blower....I just hope I can overcome the TB problem.

I'm thinking about 3,000-3,500$

Reasonable pricing range. Not too many people belive this can be done.

it absolutely can be done. I bet if I had all of the needed supplies in front of me it could be finished in two weeks.

That, however, is the problem. I'm haing to purchase all of this out of my pocket and the cost of the supercharger (the first step in the process) is so expensive. I'm trying to keep this in everyone's bdiget range and even them I'm worried $2800 may be too high. Look at all of the people who are complaining about the AEM ($1400) being too expensive.

I was hoping to keep the supercharger kit to $2800 intercooled. Then for an additonal $1400 ($4200 total) You could add the AEM for unlimited control and flexability. Even at $4200 it is the same price as the Highboost kit and I bet the AEM is much more user friendly.

After reading Ken's old supercharger thread on p5.com (Yes, I'm still on the other forum) I feel I need to make a comment about why I'm being wishy-washy about the choice of blower.

Originally I had stated I only wanted the MP45. I made this decision based solely on the compressor maps, ease of design in regards to the FMIC and intake plumbing. After hearing so much opposition from people who demanded (even though they won't commit to buy anything) the MP62. I re-contacted Eaton and discussed with them my concerns about the application. They assured me that an MP62 would be streetable and would provide a more "up-able" power curve should a buyer want to upgrade down the road. I agreed. After speaking with them for about an hour I had one of their design engineer's on the phone going over my ideas. It was then told to me that the Eaton blower would require the TB to be mounted to the blower inlet. That wouldn't have been a problem EXCEPT for all of the electrical wiring attached to the TB, the TPS, Purge solenoid, etc... There is no way to make this reach the front of the motor without cutting and splicing vital wiring harnesses. THIS IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. This goes against one of my very first goals. It must be bolt on with no modification.

p.s. a roots style blower inherently has a little higher ambient discharge temperature when compared to a centrifugal blower so it would make more sense to use a centrifugal blower for efficiency reasons.


p.p.s. I don't remember the wankers name who was giving me a hard time on the other forum, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. From the very begininng of this I've been very open with everyone about whats going and what I'm hoping to do. Still some people (mainly on the other forum only) seem to make it their business to discredit someone any chance they get. Remind me to add his name to the list of people who won't be getting a supercharger.

Welp, of everyone I've talked to, NONE of them are able to give me any leads, amazingly! Turbos I can get, and are more than plentiful, but that's not what I need. =P I've still got a few people that I can hit up for leads, but I won't see or hear from them until next week, unfortunatly. I'll keep you updated, though.

Sounds good. I can purchase the Eaton's now for $1K a piece if I buy 20 at one time....anyone want to front me $20K?? Also, using the eaton require some nasty wiring and modification. i'd rather stay away from them if possible...any roots style blower should be out of the question.

Paul, I saw your post on the other thread. It's half-right. The Eaton is actually the cheapest blower I've found but due to it's unusal airflow requirements I don't think it'll be the best choice for this application. You are right though about everything else. I'm not about to work this hard and long to price myself out of the competition. Thats just stupid! I've got to build reliable, cheap boost that almost anyone can install in their driveway. If I can do that then I think we'd have a winner on our hands.

sheesh, I can't believe people think this is some sort of hoax.

p.s. If anyone notices in the pictures being posted of Area51's blower....there is no powersteering. this is obviously out of the question for me.

Roddimus, any chance you know how you're going to run the pulley/belt? Right off of the crank, with an alternate/bolt-on outer pulley, or using a different belt for the alternator were the only two things I could think of, given that the other belt is already running two devices (AC compressor/PS pump). I don't know if that makes a huge difference, either in parasitic loss or in wear of the belts, but I thought I'd ask, 'cause I've sketched up a few tentative plans, and have been giving it intermittant thought. =) Centrifugal (Vortech or somesuch) blowers are cheaper, typically, than Eatons, though, aren't they? I suppose that the smaller packaging would make them more difficult to manufacture, so I could understand if they were more expensive, but I really have no idea. I'm going to take a few dozen shots of my engine bay today, and start sketching in detail, just for the hell of it, 'cause who knows, maybe I'll think of something that I can contribute. =)

Don't make me get into it with you, too :-).

My point was the cost of the eaton blower vs. what you could pick up a turbo for "all day long" as you put it. It seemed to me that you were going to explore the possibilty of there maybe being a less expensive blower out there, or at the very least a manufaturer who could give you a better discount. I thought that the was the point of talking to ATI - to see if a better deal could be had. If Eaton is you're best deal, then so be it; its a name known by everyone. But when I posted on the other forum, I was not aware that the Eaton was your best deal.

Anyway, I know you want the kit to be PnP as much as possible, and I know its a little more work on your end, but what if the kit had a PnP wiring harness that moved all the sensors into the right position; or is that too far fetched?

The supercharger needs to be run solely off the crank pulley. A custom pulley will have to be made that will require the belts to all come off the car. I am hoping that this will be the hardest part of the install for those people less mechanically inclined.

When building a supercharger system boost is measured and controlled based on 3 things, blower pulley diameter, crank pulley diameter and engine rpm. The more pulleys you add into the equation the less certain you can be of what is going on with the blower speed.


I had planned on running the shaft just under the coolant/power steering loop. If this isn't possible then I was going to relocate the AC line and eliminate the PS-loop. This should be realitivly easy once I have a core body I can use to start getting measurements.

That is exactly right. It has to be cost effective and a good value. Remember, this is supposed to be a CHEAPER alternative to a turbo.


As for the wiring. Last I looked it appeared that the sensors are tied directly into the factory harness. There is no connection between the socket and the wiring harness...the only to get the extra length needed would be to cut into the factory harness and splice in extra length. I would like to avoid this at all cost. Also, the TB has to be replaced with a weird "butterfly-less opening" on the IM with the eaton since the TB is moved to the blower....with the centrifugal blower it stay in place....


Also, another great point about a supercharger is that it's not driven by exhaust gas which means that if someone wished to purchase the stage 2 NA cams they could leave them in the car and add the supercharger (for an AMAZING gain I'd bet) later. With a turbo car a cam has to be specially designed to aid in turbo spool and boost build-up. No worries with the supercharger.

Really!? You would think that they would use a connector in order to simplify replacement if the sensor went bad. I know QC is probably pretty good, but I'm sure there still are failures!

it's the harness thats the problem not the sensor...if a sensor fails they just unplug it and pop on a new one. I guess I could do that if I could get both female and male connectors for those plugs....how available do you think that would be?? not very I'm betting.

It really depends on the connector and the sensor you're talking about; The O2 sensors would probably be somewhat easy to come by, whereas getting an EEC IV ECU connector is a royal pain in the butt... It all depends on who makes the connectors. I think in the case of the O2 sensor, it's probably Mitsubishi or Nippon-Denso or somesuch. But going that route would enable you to plug in the 'pass through', and source the signal from the stock sensor by splicing the wire into the pass through harness, rather than the stock harness, leaving everything intact. I have quite a few friends who work in electrical engineering, so I'm sure they could help with finding the apropriate connectors, depending on what you need for sensors.

Edit: In fact, look here: http://www.rpmoutlet.com/gmo2s.htm

I bet the Ford style is the same that we have. But it's hard to say without looking at both of them. =) But that just goes to show you that they ARE out there.

Another alternative is a factory style O2 sensor from Bosch or some company being used, spliced into, and offered with the kit, but that's bound to be more expensive.

Hey, don't they say there's a mate for everybody! :D

My original thoughts were that a female or male opposite connector piece should be available, just possibly not that readily. But I'm sure with some investigation it can be found. I just got the sense from you that some of those points were hardwired into the harness.

I'm with Black on this one; I think it can be done. If you tell me what connector points you think you'll need to extend, I'll gladly snoop around and see what I can find.

And I really think that the benefits of using an MP62 do outweigh the need to splice into the harness in several places, if thats what it takes to get it to work. Matty, look at how many turbo kits require you to splice in to the harness.

Damn, the further we delve into this, the more exciting this is getting.

I think you and I are talking about different sensors...I'm not doing anyting with o2 sensors....If you look at the throttle body on the protege there is wiring attached to it. You have a TPS and a purge solenoid. These are wired directly to the factory wiring harness. In order for me to make a P&P harness I'd need the male and female connectors for THOSE sensors only.

We may be talking about the same thing or it's probably a brakdown in communication over the intrAweb.

So the only concern you have is relocating the TB. Let me check it out this weekend, and I'll see what I can come up with.

:bigthumb:

I was just using the O2 sensor as an example. =) I'll take some pictures and take a look myself this afternoon; I think the purge control solenoid is actually on top of the intake tract, not the throttle body, though, so you could just relocate it with an angle bracket to the top of the manifold or something similar, like I did. =) I'll take pictures of it, like I said, and post one if that doesn't make much sense to you. Hehee.

Also, there's a pair of coolant lines that run to the throttle body, too, to warm the intake charge on cold starts, so that may be something to consider. *nods*

yeah, I'm just going to bypass these...instead of running in and out of the TB they are just going to tie together...no need for this junk.

i pmmed you my phone nnumber....if you could give me a call in about 30 minutes (2:50pm cst) I'll be able to go over all of my concerns with you so you have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with.

Hmmm... Is it terribly wise to plumb the coolant out of the path of the throttle body in places where it gets particularly cold or hot, though? Not so sure about that one, really, but I doubt it honestly makes that much of a difference, to be fair.

yeah, it's a stupid design that does nothing but heat up the intake charge....this is counter-productive to what we're trying to do.

Also, cars have had no problems warming up on their own since EFI was introduced back in the 60's.

Yeah, I figured it didn't do much... I just get paranoid about that sort of thing. Heh. Cool. I'll go out and disable mine, now, anyway, just to reassure myself.

hahaha