yeah, during the day I'm pretty quick with a response!

AHA!! no wait! I figured out what AREA541 did. they retained the PS resiviore(sp??) and kept it full. Now the pump would keep a constant pressure on the system and help keep it cool but all it needs just have fluid in the system for it to retain SOME effectiveness. You will notice a drop in ease of steering but it won't be grinding and stiff.

I won't be doing this either....not a compromise I'm willing to make. Just wanted to clear that up.

Bah, your both daft. The powerloss due to a 90 degree madrel bend in a 3 inch pipe is going to be nil, especially with another nice 90 from the factory in front of the TB.

We never said it would cause a major loss in power, but it could have some effect on how quickly it responds to boost. My main point though, was that they just put god knows how much money into that car building a totally custom setup, then half-assed a detail like that. It can be the difference between a very well tuned car and a car that just runs ok.

A pressurized system will have a less difficult time getting air into the TB but will still be effected by bends.

Also, think about the fact that a supercharger builds boost based on rpm's so at low boost levels the blower might not be making enough pressure to get the air to the motor after the MAF reads it and that would cause all sorts of driveability. Smoothness of the inlet air flow is a big factor to me. Efficiency in EVERY aspect is KEY to me.

who cares, lol..that supercharger setup Are 51 did is badass!! and cleans as hell...any body got any idea what kinda power it makes??

I think the kit looks ok but I'm not happy with the way they did some of their things.

For starters, removing the PS is not a BIG deal but obviously more intrusive than removing the AC, especially on a show car.

Secondly, They chose a blower so large they had to custom design a header so it would fit....It looks #1 cylinder is severely crimped off. I'd want to see how that header affects the car NA. If anything a decent header like the OBX or Wagner header would fit better, free up more room and make more power.

thirdly, the intake plumbing doesn't look very efficient with all of the 90* bends and such. It would be so easy and so much more efficient to smooth those out.

I think the kit looks good from a visual standpoint, but from an engineering or performance stand point it leaves something lacking.

UPDATE Ken from Protege Garage and I are in negotians with a major supercharger manufacturer for blowers and other accessories. What we are hoping is to get full access to their products and techs to help build 2 seperate kits. An Intercooled kit running 10psi for the manual trannys and a non-intercooled 5-6psi kit for the automatic guys. Doing this allows flexibility for the new owner to choose when and what they want to upgrade.

Pricing is still a little high right now due to the fact of no official bulk discounts. These will probably have to be sold in GB's only due to the cost of purchasing a single unit. Again, this is not set in stone as we are still negotiating with them.

I'm going to have to update one of my previous goals. I had originally wanted to design a blower kit that was bolt in with basic handtools. Due to the outlet of the blower and the mounting location of the intercooler some trimming will need to be done to accomodate the intercooler piping. The non-intercooled kits will not need to do this. The trimming will be easy and non-detremental to the structural integrity of the car. This should be easily accomplished with a basic sawz-all or air-snips.

I'll be sure to keep everyone updated. Once we hammer out an agreement I'll be sure to post completed specs and stats for the blower I choose.

p.s For "Stutters"....the reason AREA51's kits were $5K was because they were one-offs and required a custom header be fabricated as well. The blower they used is probably $21-2300 from the prices I've gotten for one head. Also, AREA51 did this blower for the sole reason of building it on some companies show car as a custom project.....not in the efforts to build a reliable, inexpensive alternative to a turbocharger. There are BIG differences between the two....try to think about them next time. I've been very clear and easy to understand about everything.

Hey Matty, what's your take on the reliability of the stock internals for this project? Is it all management related, or is there a point where forged internals would be a good idea, seeing that the blower you're looking at is capable of high output.

Forged internals is ALWAYS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED with any FI set-up...hell even on stock motors that turn higher rpms.

Basically, I'm not tuning this based on psi or power. I'm going to be looking at the cfm of the blower and I'm going to work with "the manufacturer" to determine how much cfm of air this motor will support with this given fuel pressure. I'm not really worried about detonation causing engine failure. I'm not worried about a drop in fuel pressure causing engine failure. I'm worried aboutt he tensile strength of the stock con-rods. I'm going to match the cfm rate that we decide on on to the blowers rpms and then choose a pulley designed to work with the stock crank pulley (sorry, no aftermarket UDP's allowed) to achieve the desired cfm rate. It matters not to me what the boost is. It could be 3 psi it could 24psi. I'm assuming judging by similar models that our stock engine could run 7-8psi intercooled psi safely and daily. I think 10psi would be fine for track days and 96+octane. Anyone with forged internals is going to be able to make the transmission explode before the motor. I figure on stock internals, running the FMU with the intercooled blower you should see between 170-180hp at the WHEELS. torque should be a little higher. These are peak numbers BUT the overall power curve will be larger by a yet undetermined percentage....typically 55-75% which puts my power estimate dead on. Also, modifications like a header, exhaust and cams will be greatly magnified by something like this. A supercharger is a positive displacement air pump and adds to the overall "size" of the motor. You will feel the boost but not like a turbo. The supercharger will feel like a strong V6 under the hood while a turbo will feel like a 4pot until it spools up and then comes on like a freight train.

I HIGHLY doubt anyone in the protege community will be able to run this blower at anywhere near it's limits! I don't think the chasis will hold it!! However, I make you this promise. Should I sell enough of these kits to make a steady profit I will absolutley build the block and tranny and look into serious competition. I've always been a racer and while the blown cars look great at shows I belong on the track and a creation like this deserves to be wrung out! I look forward to the oppurtunity to do it.

I thought you were going with a Centrifugal S/C? Roots & twin screw are positive displacement, centrifugal are not.

oops, you are correct!

bump for more exposure.

im just gonna throw this out there...i saw that they have a supercharger for the 99-04 miatas from jackson racing... is there anyway u maybe able to get some ideas from there design since it being a mazda?

The JR sc's are eaton M45 blowers mounted directly on a custom lower intake manifold. There is no intercooling and if you pay extra you can have "water mist injection" as your only cooling method.

From previous experience and testing on the protege the Eaton blowers are not ideal nor efficient enough to be considered for this application. Twin screw blowers just turn out too much heat and are too large and bulky to mount anywhere.

any update on the supercharger??? im def interested

Yeah, it's sunday night now and I'm hoping to speak with the manufacturer either monday or tuesday and see about getting my core to complete the mockup.

If all goes smoothly I'll have it up and running in time for NOPI in Atlanta for all of the S.E. guys who are interested in seeing it up and running. Also, I may be able to get it on NOPI's dyno....should be interesteing to see.

I really hope this manufacturer see's the light and decides to provide me with this stuff. It only stands to benefit them to have this ready to go at the biggest import event of the year.

We'll see and I'll keep everyone updated.

any news?

Yes, but it wasn't positive. I basically went to the manufacturer and laid out a proposal in extensive detail to design a superhcer kit for the protege based on their blower, their fmu, their intercooler, etc.... All I was asking for was a universal kit that I could modify and tune in time for NOPI in atlanta. They would be able to add whatever decals they wanted to my vehicle, I would wear their shirt, basically just promote their entiere company at the largest Import car show in the US.

The guy laughed in my face. He told me that a mazda protege wasn't a popular car and no'one would buy one for it. He also told me that he received 50 calls a day from people wanting free or discounted stuff and that he is not in the market to give stuff away. I then asked for manufacturer pricing on a universal kit so I could purchase it myself. He told me that was out of the question as well but he would sell me just the head unit for $2400. When I explained that he was forcing me to price this out of anyone's buying range he told me that their 350Z kit retails for $6K and they can't keep them on the shelves. I tried explaining that the 350Z buyer may be a little more financially independent than the Protege buyer.

Needless to say I will not be given a dev kit to design this. This means I have to come up with $2800 out of my pocket as this is my actual cost for everything. I will not be showing this off at NOPI like I had hoped unless someone makes a generous donation or decides they want this kit sight unseen and puts a deposit down on it so I can get started. This would be ideal.

While I believe ATI makes the best supercharger for this application. I'm not happy to be buying their products. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride to get ther job done though.

anywho, i have an auto 03 ES sedan. bone stock. i guess i'll have to catch up on the thread a little to see what's going on but i might be interested in having my car as the test mule if i can work things out

very nice. I'm about 800 miles away from you so it may be a heck of a drive. I almost drove it when I went to Wagners so it's not impossible.

An auto ES would be preferable since it would be able to test the auto AND the front grill for the intercooler.

UPDATE

Right now I have been speaking with Powerdyne about their blowers. They are self-contained (important), internally belt-driven (no noise at all!) and require a rebuild every 50K miles for a total of about $200. This is a very nice package. It's a little larger than the Procharger I was planning on using but has all of the same great characteristics.

These superchargers are used on V6 and V8 applications and make 50-75% power increase at only 6psi NON-intercooled. I am planning on running 5psi intercooled for about 180-200whp. This is a substantional increase over stock and absolutely worth the estimated $2500 cost.

I am still very interested in doing this, have you made any more developments as to what you plan to keep and toss in the engine bay?

Is removing the AC going to be crucial in the actual fitment, or just for the obvious 40-50lbs of weight ruduction and stress relief?

WB Power steering, I don't totally grasp the "half full" approach you spoke of area 51 trying to impose.

the ac HAS to go to provide the PS pump a place to be relocated to. removing the condensor and evap canister is just pulling dead weight and cleaning up trash under the hood. However, the compressor is the only piece that HAS to go....you could very well keep everything else installed to remove the kit for future sale and just recharge the AC once it's back on the car.

AREA51 had a good idea with the type of blower and where it's mounted. I'm keeping that the same. Their problem was that they removed the PS pump and added a blower so large and bulky it laid into the exhaust manifold. This required them to custom fabricate a horribly flawed header. Also their kit is non-intercooled and required oil cooling which mine does not. They were on the right track but didn't take the time to think it all through I guess. Also, I believe their kit was designed for the show car circuit where mine is designed for the average person to afford and use daily.

half-full?? Im not sure what ou're refering to but I believe you mean about how they removed their PS and just filled the PS lines with fluid that will not circulate or cool off....I'm not sure why they did this. It's a mystery to me and they are out of business now anyway.

there must be more than one yellow wings west cars. The picture on the wall I have has black painted hood and front mount IC, i've seen other pics with no visible IC and CF hood

well there is a difference between the WW project car and any other sedan painted yellow with the WW kti and a turbo. Their supercharged car had NO intercooler. The only other AREA51 kit went to a private individual and it was on an mp3 I believe.

wings west car
 

this is the ACTUAL ww project car with the AREA51 kit. No intercooler to be found. I think you must've seen a random mp3 with a turbo kit.

if not its a very similar car all the way down to the yellow tint, decals, etc.

I know the car was recently ebay'ed here in the last few months, it could've easily undergone some changes.

I'll scan in my pic later tonight.

crappy scan, but you get the idea

like I said, I believe there to be more than one, i've been very picky looking at the hoods and was fairly sure their mp3 had a black painted hood w/ i c before the CF hood was released.

Like I said, I am most skeptical regarding the power steering system. I know nothing about what it includes and involves.

I've asked friends who have been into tuning for nearly a decade and they say its mostly a matter of personal preference, that even autocross cars are some w/ and some w/out power steerint. With that I've never driven a car without power steering (to my knowledge) so I don't know if its something I like.

But, you are saying now that you have figured out a way to keep the resivoir and relocate it?

yeah, the car you've posted isn't the official WW car with the supercharger...looks like a close knock-off though.


Yes, the powersteering is staying unless a customer would rather lose it instead. The only thing that matters is that the blower be mounted in the location of the power steering pump.

I personaly think it's MUCH wiser to keep powersteering. The protege has a great steering system.

what are you looking at in terms of cost NON intercooled to begin with, I would be much more likely to be able to front the money minus the cost of the IC and the piping, obviously, the ideal would be to have this be a bolt on upgrade.

Also, in terms of headers are any of the awr, obx, ractive headers compatable, or do they have to be custom tailored?

Also, another concern I have is the exhaust. I don't know about other parts of the country, but recently in fairfax county VA here, cops are ticketing heavily for aftermarket exhausts. Whats the possibility of me being able to run an electronic exhaust cutout on stock piping? (Poissibly 2.5" to an OEM looking muffler) Would there be a problem running low boost 3-4 daily, and 5-6 with open exhaust? I'm on traffic probation for a good amount of time and a ticket like this would simply do me in.

obviously this setup, non intercooled-> header-> exhaust cutout is not the optimal tuned and maxed horsepower setup, but at least more of a start in the right direction.

lmk your thoughts

p.s. I am totally open to removing the AC, as it is not something I use, even in the 90-100 humid weather we have here. I am a "windows down" cruiser.

I don't believe I'm going to make a non-intercooled version of the kit. There are a few reasons why.
#1. Safety, an intercooled FI set-up is far more reliable and powerful than a non-intercooled.

#2. Boost drop, I'm actually counting on the intercooler to pull 1psi or so off the blower. The superchargers I'm looking at force enough air at 6psi to feed a chevy 350cid engine. The same 6psi on our FS-de engines could be disasterous. That is a lot of air to be cramming into the motor and an intercooler will help bleed some of that off.

#3, It just plain looks cooler. If I do end up going with the Powerdyne there is no way anyone outside the car will know it's supercharged unless you tell them. The Powerdyne makes absolutely 0 noise. Even under full boost there is no whine associated with most superchargers. Powerdyne uses an internal kevlar belt to drive it's impeller and since there are no gears, no oiling, etc there is no noise. Just thrust. The intercooler in the grill will let people subtley know that you're boosted.


This will be mad to fit around the stock exhaust unlike the AREA51 kit which required a custom header. There is a problem though with any FI set-up. If you cram that much more air into the motor you HAVE to be able to get it out. While a header and exhaust are not required they are recommended. The last thing you want to have happen is to blow a headgasket because of exhaust backpressure. If you were to use the Wagner header with a high flow downpipe or the OBX header and relocate the o2 sensors to the second cat then you should be more than fine. You just have to relieve that pressure off the head. This is a common problem with the ford supercoupes. Their exhaust design caused too much backpressure and they constatnly blew head gaskets. Thats what happens when you make 210hp and 320lb/ft on a 3.8L v6!!

p.s. I don't think a cut-out will be helpfull because you need to remove the restrictions at the head to prevent any damage. This of course is just preventive maintaince but something to look into if you're serious about making more power.

What about the addition of a BOV/BPV ?

I'm starting to do some reading on the other boards about the powerdyne, here are some tidbits of info I have read:

*'would not reccommend intercooler for powerdyne kit due to it increasing the speed of the impeller speed, (unsafe)'

*My experience with the P/D was:
POSITIVES:
1) Low Price
2) Easiest to install
3) Decent power gain
4) Quieter

NEGATIVES:
1) Doesn't come with a fuel pump upgrade (highly recommend as the stock fuel pump barely supports the stock motor).
2) Doesn't have a by-pass valve set-up to relieve boost when you let off the gas.
3) Had to send mine back after approx. 3 months due to bad bearings in the head unit, could only get about 3psi boost at WOT. Better after repaired under warranty.
4) Doesn't come with an intercooler.
5) Factory set-up is 5-6psi only.


also, how is boost adjusted with the supercharger setup since there is no wastegate?

first off....I'm only using the powerdyne HEADUNIT....this is not a powerdyne KIT. this is MY kit. It WILL come with an intercooler, it will come with ALL needed fuel control pieces, electronics and sensors to work correctly.

As for your questions:

There will be no BOV...there will be a recirc valve. The reason this is used is because it allows for better drivability on the street (driveability was my #1 goal). a BPV or BOV is only needed for anything over about 12psi on these blowers and they only put out about 9psi with stock pulleys.

How do you adjust the boost?? Boost on a supercharger is ONLY created by the crank pulley size, the blower pulley size and engine rpms. The smaller the blower pulley the faster it will spin and the more boost it will create. This is another reason why you can't use underdrive pulleys with a supercharger. It throws the specific ratios needed to turn the blower at speed. This is a benefit of superchargers. don't look at it as a down side. This will never boost creep or spike like EVERY turbo kit will do.

about the boost only being 5-6psi....there is a reason for that. Check the sfm rating of how much air it is pumping at that same 6psi. This is similar to a lot of the questions....how much boost can my motor handle?? well it all depends on your turbo sizing and how much it's huffing on the motor. I assure you that a powerdyne running 6psi will be MORE than enough to supply your motor with the boost you'd want. I'd equate it to about 15+psi on a .42 trim T3. These blowers are designed to feed large V8's. They will have no problem breathing on your 2.0L.

p.s. an intercooler cannot increase impeller speed. The only thing that controlls impeller speed is the blower pulleyu, crank pulley and engine rpm....it's all phsyically connected...it's not like a vaccuum operated turbo set-up.

oh p.s. The guy who said he had to have "bearings" replaced is a liar. The reason the Powerdyne makes no noise is that there are NO bearings to lubricate and no metal-on-metal contact. The blower pulley drives a larger internal pulley which is conected to a kevlar belt which in turn drives a smaller impeller pulley. This is called "stepping up". It means the engine has to turn less rpms to create the same or more boost. Procharger does that as well but there is gear driven and internally lubricated.

so a blow off valve decreases reliability in this case ?

:(

no no no no....not relaibility...DRIVEABILITY. The maf meter has already accounted for the air in the intake plumbing and if you discharge it to the atmosphere and then hit the throttle again you run real rich and the car bogs and sputters...a recirc valve is the exact same thing as a BOV except it dishcrages the gas back into the intake plumbing so when you hit the throttle again it's right there and doesn't have to wait for the turbo to spool back up.

This is the same style setup the MSP uses...you hear about people having problems with their BOV's....kinda the same thing.

done some more reading, and found a few interesting points
on the f150 and s10 forums the general concensus is that the powerdyne head is a fairly good, cheap and reliable alternative to the other companies, i/e: procharger, vortec, eaton, etc.

They say that the "installation is a breeze" appx 3 hours for the powerdyne (factory KIT) whereas some users had tried more than one, and experienced a much longer install time for other kits.

One compared a procharger kit (came intercooled) to the non intercooled powerdyne kit he had and said that the powerdyne was nice for its easy and clean install (looked very professional he says), no modifications necessary, and that the charger could 'be removed and run n/a fairly easily", leading to a simple return to stock look if a desire to sell were to arise.

In contrast to his ATI kit that he had installed after, he said this install took him appx 4 days (on and off) to install successfully. With much cutting and relocating he finally got everything situated. He said he overall happier with this kit, that even though the install didn't look anywhere near as clean as the dyne, that the overall quality of the charger and the power produced was much more satisfying.

Also, the major eye opener for me was the number of people who had complained about breaking their headunits. This was reportedly, across the board, problems resulting from "not being educated in how the blowers work, that these are not meant to be heavily downshifted on, and WILL break them"

Now, don't get me wrong. I just got thru with my little experience loosing my license for a first offense reckless ticket, and will never take a race to the streets again. BUT, I know for a fact that 75% of the races that occur on my local streets happen from a roll, in which case, downshifting typically occurs. If I were to have a kit like this, I have no intentions of racing whatsoever, track or street. I just hope to change the stick in the mud acceleration many of us n/a 2.0's have come to hate. But, even at that, I don't do any 5th -> 2nd downshifting, but obviously do downshift on a daily basis.

Any thoughts?