ok guys....moment of truth....This determines how much longer I persue this and spend money on it! this question is for serious buyers only. I can really only value the input of people who would be willing to spend the money to have this. As I'd be building it for them.


What are you willing to sacrifice?!?! Something under the hood is going to have to go. If you guys look at the belt drive system there is really no place to get any sort of pulley in there in it's stock configuration. I have toyed around with the idea of turning the Powersteering pump around to "about-face" and then machining my own P/S pulley that would drive the blower (not proven, just an idea). this however involves cutting of the P/S loop and some good fabrication work. Something I said I didn't want you guys to do.

The next choice is for me to build a blower off the intake manifold like Jackson Racing. This is also a good possibility however if you have cruis control you're going to lose it. Also, strut bar has to go.

Nothing can be gained without compromise and struggle. I need to know what you'd rather see....if anything. With the blower mounted to the intake there is no intercooler and substantially more heat. I was looking to see if I could get discount pricing for the JR liquid intercooler sprayer. This should help out. Without a good Intercooler Power and boost levels will be limited. I would say 5-6psi on the M62 would be about tops. This should still add over 60whp.

What are your thoughts? I'm going to keep bumping this thread for the next few days so I know how much of my personal money to spend continuing this project or if I should just build it for me.

How much would it take to get the Jackson racing setup for the Focus to work? I think the protege has more room under the hood and i would think it would be a minor modification thing. Im sure the cost on the Jackson setup is more, but if you could use it as a prototype or design basis maybe it would simplify the design process... Just an idea probably a stupid one, but an idea none-the-less. Even though its kind of been stated...

I won't be using a Jackson racing kit even for mock-up. The heads are different and a custom intake manifold would have to be made specifically for the FS-DE motor. Also, we've pretty much determined that the MP45 on the Focus kit is too small and everyone demands something bigger with upgradability.

It was just an idea, I thought the engines were more similiar, but obviously not.

no, totally different engines.

I would like to use the JR liquid injection though if I can't use a frontmount.

Would you lose the power steering completely if you mounted in the front of the engine bay? I'm thinking that power steering would be a preference to hang on to.

Mounting on or near the intake loses cruise and the strut bar. Cruise is no big deal; from what I'm familiar with MSPs, they don't have cruise either. Strut bar could be reconfigured to work.

Top mount I/C, kind of like the WRX?

I agree that the Jackson Focus unit is a bad one to emulate. Car and Driver did a road test on a supercharged Focus about a year ago. Jackson claimed something like 225hp, but the car was slower than the 170-hp SVT Focus. In fact, it couldn't even break the 8-second barrier to 60 miles per hour. Turns out the supercharger wasn't matched very well to the engine. There was a very narrow rpm range, where you'd get a tremendous amount of power. If I was anywhere near my giant collection of dog-eared magazines, I would let you know the date of the article plus more details.

wow, I'd love to read that! something to think about is the focus has a huge powerband...something we dont.

I think thats a pretty respectable gain being non-intercooled. Add the header, cams, hi-flow DP and MP you're going to see some really good gains.

Maybe the way this should progress is to get this to a Stage I kit first, just to get the concept established and feasible. Once that's set, then you look at a Stage II with intercooling. Just a thought.

yeah, I was thinking about that but I'm a little more cautious. I do not want ANY kit to be made without intercooling of some kind. I feel everything safety/reliability oriented should be addressed first....then we'll worry aboout adding boost. I think this is where a lot of people get it wrong and pop stuff.....also a header will probably come in the kit....still checking though.

Found this:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

holy crap....their supercharged ZX3 is slower in the 1/4 mile than my stock P5?!?! What did he do wrong?!?! Will I find out in my own way?!?!

They said the M45 is only running 6psi...thats horrible it should at least be running 10psi...thats it's efficiency cross point...where it starts being counter-productive. I was hoping to run 6psi with the M62 if it works out.

Nearly three grand for no real gains!




WOW!

I can do better than that!

di it to it Roddimus~! I am following this thread closely...as I was thinking about a low cost 6psi non intercooled turbo set up as well

6psi with MP62 would HAVE to be intercooled or liqui-cooled. Too much heat...detonation would be a given.

Also, I'm not a fan of the Eaton's after seeing what all is involved with making them work, but it may be the least intrusive design.

Link from Mazdamp3.com on a 2.0L Kit
 

www.boosthead.com

I don't know how much different the 626/Probe 2.0L is to ours, but the kit at least can provide a glimpse of what a intake mounted supercharger would look like on our cars.

I remember the headers for the Probe 2.0L were being made to fit our engines before any headers were available, so it should be close.

Just trying to help!

Ryan:)

already looked into it...there's not as much clearance between the intake manifold/supercharger and the firewall.

Also, you would have to remove the strut bar and cruise control for this to even be close.

The only other thing I was thinking about was the possibility of making the kit without the supercharger itself, allowing the end user to source his/her own Charger. Its not viable for you as someone wanting to sell kits, but Eatons can be found on Ebay for great prices.

Just read your reply, and how bad is the clearance with the firewall? I'd gladly say goodbye to cruise and strut bar ( which could probably get modified ) for FI via a direct bolt on. Is the kit a straight fit aside from those issues?

no, it's not a direct fit. The actual intake manifold lower half he uses is different. I tried contacting him to see what he did to mount the two together....no reply.

I don't feel good about running a large blower with no means of intercooling and having to remove pieces of the car to get it on there.

This may in all honesty turn out to only be a priject for me and my car. I'm willing to make sacrifices that I'm sure some of you are not. I personally don't mind losing the powersteering. Also, doing that would allow for so many more possibilites on a supercharger application. Also, I prefer a nice air-air intercooler up front with a sprayer. Not going to be able to do that with the eatons mounted on the intake manifold....it just boils down to what people want to do.

I myself can do without AC and P/S...I doubt many of you would.

no AC is straight, but...no power steering?

:(

It can be done either/or.....P/S is right up top and super easy access. Also, removing the AC is going to consist of properly draining the freon from the system and disposing of it properly....or you could you just release it all from the schraoder valve.

Another BIG perk of dropping the AC is that you can also remove all associated piping, and hardware. The condernsor comes out along with the compressor and wiring...I bet it's 40+lbs of dead weight at that point.

If I were to get full sponsorship from a larger company I would actually remove everything from the car and make it a SERIOUS race/show car. I would require a monthly payment of course or a considerable lump sum to allow me to purchase another daily driver....probably just a kia or so.

With about 150lbs of weight dropped from the engine bay and a blower the P5 would be a SERIOUS contender at any event be it drag racing or auto-x.

Sorry you're dealing with somewhat of a newb here, but is it just the power steering resivoir thats in the way? Are they hard lines that cannot be moved? I've seen a catch can for the power steering previously.

I'm bagging the car, soo, in loosing all handling characteristics I may be open to dropping the strut bar as well.

Dunno still just a little skeptical on power steering system. Is there no CEL associated with that?

but, turning it into an auto X car does sound somewhat appealing.... :)

also, with the wagner cams, we would be purchasing the NA trim, not the FI ?

NA cams would be used for the supercharger...the supercharger isn't controled by exhaust gas pulses so the cam won't affect it in any way.

The problem with the powersteering is that there is fluid inside the system and you will want that fluid to stay in there. What I'd have to do is find a way to remove the powersteering pump. Basically bypass the pump but leave the exsisting hard-lines and resivour. There are hard lines on the PS system and that is another obsticle when it came to re-routing the pump. All new lines would have to be made.

Dropping the AC appears to be much easier and more beneficial as it will maintain the PS for daily driving and remove much more "dead weight" from the nose of the vehicle. However. Once it's out it will be VERY difficult to ever return back to stock. This should be a KEY consideration point if anyone is interested in doing this. Do not expect to be able to trade this car in. You will need to plan selling it to someone who can appreciate it for what it is.

Losing the AC may be the better way to go now that I start thinking through it.

I use to be a CL-S owner and one of the mods that I was really waiting for was a supercharger or a turbo. Unfortunately, I totalled the car before the supercharger from Comptech was released. I bring this up because I don't know if you have seen the SC for a CL-S before but one thing that was interesting was how it was driven by the pulley. It uses a "driveshaft" of sorts to spin it. Mind you, I am not your SC specialist so I haven't seen much setups and so if this is a common setup, excuse my ignorance. I just remembered earlier in this thread you mentioned trying to find a location for the crank pulley connect to the SC and I remembered the Comptech setup. I also don't know if this will help your TB dilemma but it's worth posting. Maybe my dreams of going supercharged may come true someday. Here are some pics of the comptech SC.
http://solar.innercite.com/comptech/media/350-064.jpg
http://solar.innercite.com/comptech/...50-062c_lg.jpg

Yeah, those are good pics. I've passed on the eaton idea because of how little power they produce and how much heat is associated with them. Also, they are larger and bulkier than other centrifugal blowers. The problem wasn't really finding a place to mount the blower it's finding a plice to DRIVE the blower. The pulley in the Comptech kit is mounted up top above the engine and this won't work with a stock protege hood.

Also, That is a 3.2L V6 and an Eaton M62 blower on it only mad like 40-60hp....thats horrible. For reference, my friends 3.0L ranger got an M62 eaton and it made 230whp from 140bhp stock...no other mods made...thats a minimum of 90hp assuming 0 powertrain loss. Those blowers just aren't efficient enough for me.

Oh well, I gave it a shot.

hey, I appreciate it. I've just already looked into them. I just wanted to point out why it wouldn't work. If you have any other ideas let me know! I don't think I know it all so if you have a different outlook on something tell me!

what does the 2.0 S2000 comptech kit use?

also whats the difference in inter and after cooler? I realize inter = between, and after-obiously, but what are the advantages?

an aftercooler is a air-water cooler and horribly ineffective on the street. There is very little proof that they even produce better gains on the race track only. They run off of a seperate water tank, water pump, cooling lines and radiator. It adds a lot of weight toi the vehicle and will only cool as long as the ice inside the tank (inside your hot engine) will stay frozen...after that it's worthless.

I've seen the comptech on an S2K here and I believe it was a Vortech S-1 trim. Another good blower, but not the one I'm hoping to use. I may use because of sheer cost though. The Vortech is about $300 less than the ATI that I prefer.

so for a full 5 grand kit is the outlook for a clean install on an intercooled kit still poor?

i'm all about the s/c idea but im having trouble with the increased removal and relocation ideas

I think what you're asking is "Can the kit be made to look clean without removal or relocating of pieces if we're willing to pay $5K?".

The answer is No.

The problem with this is the way the engine is packaged in the protege engine bay. Pieces like the powersteering pump and AC are fed/supply hard lines that are not adjustable for the most part. They can't be bent because they are soft aluminum and will split in two. I originally wanted to lower the AC compressor, raise the PS pump and fit a small oulley between them on a larger belt. The problem comes with the fact that the PS bracket is also the only tensioner for the front half of the engine. So altering that bracket means you'd have to add an even more complex tightening system for the belts.

One more thing to point out. When I started this project it was just for me to build one of the only street driven supercharged P5's. I was asked to make it into a kit and the more people I started talking to agreed. Price had to be kept as low or lower than a turbo kit to sell any.

what about using some new custom bent lines to accomodate for your needs or some steel braided lines to allow for some play?? shouldnt be to awful expensive to do...the wings west pro was supercharged and retained a/c and power steering from what i remember

http://www.wingswest.com/project_images/3/21_l.jpg

area51 did the kit and headers here too

I can't believe they did all that work to get that in there, along with an intercooler, and then put that big 90 degree bend on the way to the TB. There's nothing but open space right there, they could have easily made a much smoother transition.

With the blower cramming air through the pipes it really doesn't matter what kind of bends are going on en route to the TB.

They had to have moved the pump and lines for that car, the blower is sitting right where a hard line would normally be turning down ( do a quick search for an underhood pic of a normal car ).

What I can see in the picture contradicts what I heard from AREA51. The picture shows the PS resivour(sp?) but AREA 51 said it was gone. Also the blower they are using is HUGE and takes up massive space. the blower I'm looking at is about 30% larger than just the compressor housing of a turbo. A turbo basically has 2 "honeybuns" back to back with a center bearing cartridge. The blower uses a sort of transmission so the only addition is along the botton side of the blower. It won't be as thick as the one in that kit and it'll also be lower in the engine bay so no matter your exhaust you should be ok (except for the ES long tueb EL header...gag)

03P5...you couldn't be more wrong. Having a smooth path for the air to travel is KEY in ANY vehicle wether it's boosted or not. More bends = more backpressure, more backpressure = more lag = less overall boost = less response. The intake plumbing from the filter to the blower will be almost identical on my kit but from the intercooler to the TB will be VASTLY improved.

Dang, you beat me to it Rod....