alcoholiday

they didn't choose their 'shepherd'.

that being said, whether it's in the western world's scope of work to "correct" that fact is debatable. barely.

the USA thinks hussein is unfit to lead. so? is that the american mandate? "international leader guy police". if so, could you oust chretien for me, i'm getting tired of that old power-tripping **********.


i'd also like to add that duct-taping plastic to your windows doesn't really do a hell of a lot of good if your HVAC is still on. haven't seen that addressed yet.

about the only good that will come about from having your windows sealed is a lower heating bill and well, if you're using less natural gas, the terrorists have already won.

Makaveli

Originally posted by JasonKilpa
Makaveli you seem to forget that the sanctions are imposed by the UN not the US.

Oh please, don't tell me that the US didn't have a MAJOR role to do with the sanctions.... If it was up to the other countries from UN, sanctions would've been lifted years ago.

Good example now.... UN is not for the war, but guess what, US doesn't care...

And you want to talk about the poverty level of Iraq and that they cannot help themselves. Well why is that? Because their leader won't let the money come out to help them. Hello they have just as much oil as the Saudis. If they wanted to become this great economic power I do believe they would have it in them to do so.

Do you know what sanctions actually means?

But Saddam is not about giving money to the people or the country to get them out of the poverty level. He uses his people as shields and test subjects and could care less whether they die or not. Saddam would be willing to kill all of his people if he had the one chance to attack the US.

Is that what CNN told you or perhaps Mr. Bush?

And the WTC event was NOT directly related to US foreign policy. It is because we do not have the same beliefs as they do. They don't like that we are free to do what we want and pray to the god we choose to pray to.

No, the terrorist bombings had nothing to do with muslim religion.... However some idiots did perceive it as 'War On Islam' down there and went around attacking innocent brown people. The bombing was clearly about the US's implications in the Middle East. Just a side note, I just wish that the US would find Bin Laden and publicly execute him and get their hands out of there unless they want to help.


They kill and maim their own people. Those people over there are someones brother and sister or daughter or son. Is it fair that we sit back and watch this happen at the same time be threatened with chemical and bio warfare. Isn't that what the world did with Hitler? Just wait and see what he will do and there will be a peaceful end. Yeah there was peace years and years after and after countless millions had died.


Sorry, that last part, how does this relate to Hitler? Hitler had a plan of conquering Europe and other parts of the world and then cleansing it of the Jews and others that didn't fit his profile of a 'perfect human'.

Again I know this isn't a popular opinion but oh well its mine.

I do respect your opinion, I just don't agree... If there was a solution such as attacking a military base and the only casualties would be the soldiers and Sadam, then I'd be more for it.

kc5zom

Yeah, and maybe you remember why they have those in the first place. Gee, I guess that WE put Saddam into power.

Blue, I'm glad that you have so much faith in what you get to see. I wish we could all be as informed as a low ranking reservist. Do you honestly think you are seeing anything that the world does not already know?

Everyone knows that he has weapons. But suddenly, after a decade, we have decided he can't have those weapons anymore. Oh, and those Al Qaeda camps haven't been proven to exist. The general assessment of people who don't have to kiss Bush's *** is that Al Qaeda and Saddam do not get along unless we force it.

Oh, and number one reason why the people of the Middle East don't like us: Israel. It's not because our "beliefs" are different. We took a huge chunk of their territory and set up a country. Then we persist in heavily funding that country, giving them nuclear weapons, and military equipment. I think I would be pissed off too. There would be no Jihad if Israel did not exist. And there would be no war if people weren't off buying gas guzzling SUV's.

Makaveli

Right..... US always seems to kind of not follow the rules though....

In former Yugoslavia, they DID destroy school, hospitals and factories where they 'thought' it was army shelters, as if they didn't know... they also did destroy the Chinese embassy...

I agree with kczom5

I just can't see how overall invading another country would do ANY good....

Makaveli

quote from that website

"North Dakota could have as much as 75 metric tons of weapons-grade uranium and 8 metric tons of weapons-grade plutonium," Blix said. "Just 55 pounds of uranium are needed to construct a simple nuclear weapon. Do the math—the prospects are terrifying

UCSBgeek

This is an interesting article about Saddam Hussien I found....

It's a bit of a long read, but it's very interesting.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/aburish.html

JasonKilpa

Well Makaveli I can respect your opinion and I am not going to single out everything you said and call you a bunch of names. Its your opinion and thats fine. I just disagree with it. Yes the US does have a big part of the sanctions that the UN put on Iraq. They are there for good reason though. And while it does look that it may hurt people in Iraq the truth of the matter is that those people would still be in poverty regardless.

Thier "leader" doesn't care about them. He has had the power all along to get rid of the sanctions. Well if he cared about how his people were treated by the sanctions he would do what it took to get them removed.

And whether I watch CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, or the President of the United States really doesn't matter. All tell the story they want everyone to hear. It is up to everyone to distinguish between the BS and what is real. And I am sorry but if we didn't have one soldier sitting in the Middle East we would still be at a raised level of threat right now.

I for one do not think of the WTC or the aftermath thereafter as a war on Islam. I know there are hundreds of millions of people of that religious faith that are good people. There are however a few that make it look bad. Every religion in my mind has that radical group. It is just this one decides to turn airliners filled with people into missiles and threaten with chemical and nuclear weapons. I feel bad for the good ones cause these guys give them a bad name

It is just time for someone to take a stand against these guys. Saddam is behind a lot of it. And for those that think that the War of Terrorism was such a failure I think we all forget that the President said it could take years for this to be complete not months. It would be great to have Osama right now. But when there are countries like Iraq that will hold on to him and threaten us as well something needs to be done.

I think anyone against the war wouldn't be if a terrorist did something in front of your front door. Your attitude would change a lot. Let one of your loved ones get killed. How would you feel then? Would you still give peace a chance? Or do you think we have given Iraq enough chances. I think we have. Everyday another lie is uncovered. We don't have chemical weapons. Ohhh yeah maybe we do. Yeah we have them. Enough is enough.

Sorry I did rant a little too much here. I just feel strongly about this. Again I don't call anyone names and I respect everyones opinion on this.

alcoholiday

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/02/07/arpubwc020703.htm

i'm going to drop this one in here. it's an interesting theory.

i don't believe 100% anything that read anymore but i have read enough to know that:

at best: no one version of the reasoning behind this war is all-encompassing.

at worst: those in charge are deliberatedly misleading those that voted them (or not as the case may be) into power.

fossil boy

QUOTE]Originally posted by blue LEDz
[B]
How decidedly un-American; you do not respect the opinions of others and have no regard for the Basic Right of Dissent.
i don't respect opinions that are based on not even half the evidence about a situation. i don't have respect for people who bitch about everything, but will never do anything about it. at least i know that i will be doing something to stop, or minimize terrorism. and don't say that a war is gonna bring on more terrorism. that's a cop out. the war was brought to us on sept 11. just cause we are going to do something about it now, you say we are wrong for fighting to make sure you're safe?! WTF? i see you as an ungrateful piece of ****. so no, i have no respect for you. but that's my opinion. nobody told me to feel that way. it's because i question everything, including your ignorant statements.
[/QUOTE]

Your openly irate babble did not address my question, on how YOU have the right to kill in MY country's name, when you, sir, do not respect the Constitution.
You have derided me, a fellow American, for my basic Right to Dissent. Further, I question the logic of MY government exploiting angry & impressionable young men such as yourself for the sake of an unprovoked war. Your unprofessional demeanor in a public Forum is an embarassment to the Uniform you revere. And your apparent temper and open hatred towards me, suggests then, an emotional capacity that ought not have access to deadly weapons.

I sense your feelings towards me, and thus I cringe for the Iraqi humans you may encounter. Personally, I doubt you have the cognizance to determine between an Iraqi, Pakastani, Saudi or an Israeli. How then can you maintain that you will know your enemy and identify between Combatants, Civilians and Paramilitaries. You can't!
And what is very sad, you couldn't understand why I would extend my concerns to you and wish for you to be safe in the event you have to go. That is the big difference between you and I and our values of human life.

Considering your attitude towards me, KC5zom, Makaveli and others; and your constant reference to killing; plus your lack of regard for the Constitution then how are you any different from Timothy McVeigh? According to his unit members, McVeigh actually enjoyed the Gulf War and the opportunity to kill. Tell me, I've seen your posts before - you seem certainly a sexist, but are you a racist, too?

And if you don't like my opinion on the War, check with people you may respect. Do some research and find out what Norman Schwartzkopf has to say.

You've never been in combat before; your view may change if you are "lucky" enough to get your opportunity.

alcoholiday

concern for the actual citizens of iraq is the farthest thing from the american leadership's collective mind. saying it is plays well in the media and among the rank and file, but the western world has a long history of ignoring the downtrodden unless there is something to be gained.

edit: or a score to be settled.

titocruzsd

i'd just like to point out that not all military members share the same beliefs/logic that blue LEDz does, so please don't get the wrong idea about the rest of us military members such as myself.

Pro_fan

I think the point has already been made, but here's an interesting article on the history of Iraq:

http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/iraq/

fossil boy

Speaking as one of the "ignorant, tree-hugging, pieces-of-****" I think no one of this persuasian would judge the whole by the actions of one (Which is kinda' like a microcosm of the Iraq issue!).
You've been cool about this tito! As with JasonKilpa, funkdaddysmack and Chastan - you guys have all presented calm, rational debate. And oddly, this whole thread has been amazingly courteous of one another, for the most part.

I actually have high degree of respect for the Military and its members. My family has a long Military tradition, as well. in fact, I'm an AF Brat, and probably have been on more Installations than some of you who are actually serving now (My dad was a career pilot - 27 years).
I know fully well how many military folks view War, and generally it's considered "A Last Option". I personally have not met too many Uniformed people clamouring for combat.

And nobody should relish in the concept of killing countless hapless schmucks. If anything, the last scene of the Gulf War - "The Highway of Death", where the retreating Iraqis were slaughtered by the 10's of thousands (minimum estimate), may be but a glimpse of what's to come. But add to that, a touch of Jenin (Palestinian Refugee Camp) as we enter THEIR country and conduct urban combat. This will not be pretty, unless you just like blood.

And if you want to discuss true "Threats", perhaps we should shift focus to N. Korea. There, at least, while the stakes are much higher, the pay-off is far greater, in terms of security, than with Iraq. But then, maybe we have other interests besides security...
BTW, alcoholiday, neat article you linked!!

Makaveli

Hey, every place / club / organization / country has a few odd ones in it....... Both my grandfathers died in the second world war and my dad served in the army for two years, so I do respect people that are in the army....
I am just very worried when I see people like Blue LEDz and realize that they are handling machinery more dangerous then scissors.

titocruzsd

thanks guys. i just wanted to make sure everyone knew that military members as a whole aren't trigger happy wannabe G.I. Joe's.

i've been in the air national guard for 2 years now and i'm a marine corps brat (my dad has been serving in the marine corps for 28 years now).