Lower compression&more boost!
April-21st-2002, 11:22 AM
#1
Im fastr then u think u r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto IS NOT Canada
Posts: 257
Lower compression&more boost!
Am I certafiably crazy to assume the pistons from a BP turbo engine could be retrofited to the FP engine with possibly some minor machine work?
Facts:
Both the BP and FP engines have DOHC and a bore/stroke of 83/85mm.
The current Gen3 engines run a pretty high compression ratio...9.1:1 for the 1.8L and 2L. This intern would allow a turbo nut to run at max approx. 6psi on a relatively low tech home built turbo system.
Here is my crazy idea...install the BP pistons into a FP motor and run more boost. This would get the hp above 200hp and be safer from pre-detonation...the turbo guys arch enemy.
I use to own an '88 Thunderbird Turbocoupe, that engine was a 2.3L SOHC (Pinto engine) running 8.0:1 compression and up to 18psi stock. The engine would handle near 25psi on stock internals. The hp of a stock 2.3L was about 75-80hp or 90hp with fuel injection (depending on the year) and the T-bird 190hp on 18psi of "synthetic atmosphere" (with fuel injection).
Where could I find info such as the piston pin size and piston face to pin measurements for these engines?
Facts:
Both the BP and FP engines have DOHC and a bore/stroke of 83/85mm.
The current Gen3 engines run a pretty high compression ratio...9.1:1 for the 1.8L and 2L. This intern would allow a turbo nut to run at max approx. 6psi on a relatively low tech home built turbo system.
Here is my crazy idea...install the BP pistons into a FP motor and run more boost. This would get the hp above 200hp and be safer from pre-detonation...the turbo guys arch enemy.
I use to own an '88 Thunderbird Turbocoupe, that engine was a 2.3L SOHC (Pinto engine) running 8.0:1 compression and up to 18psi stock. The engine would handle near 25psi on stock internals. The hp of a stock 2.3L was about 75-80hp or 90hp with fuel injection (depending on the year) and the T-bird 190hp on 18psi of "synthetic atmosphere" (with fuel injection).
Where could I find info such as the piston pin size and piston face to pin measurements for these engines?
April-21st-2002, 11:37 AM
#2
Im fastr then u think u r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto IS NOT Canada
Posts: 257
different idea
I was thinking about my post and doing some table napkin style research and realized my stupid mistake. I thought too hard! It hurt!
My revised idea is to install the internals from a 2.0L into the 1.8L mixing and matching to net lower compression. The 2.0L has a longer stroke (by 7mm) and therefore should have different connecting rods or pistons. With the right combination...now I need a lot of engine measurements.
My revised idea is to install the internals from a 2.0L into the 1.8L mixing and matching to net lower compression. The 2.0L has a longer stroke (by 7mm) and therefore should have different connecting rods or pistons. With the right combination...now I need a lot of engine measurements.
April-21st-2002, 01:18 PM
#3
Jedi Master Yoda
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 528
You want to run more boost in a F engine??? Well here you go. Take a set of 7MGTE pistons and rings. Take the rods from a 89-00 SOHC escort machine the wrist pin hole to fit the supra pin and machine the width of the rod down to .858 shot peen and balance the rods. Knife edge your crank .275 and put a .080 offset on the crank as well to clear the rods. Use the rod bearings from the escort. And there you go a 2.2L stroker good for 400 hp without using forged internals... I've done my homework on this one it does work. If you wanted to you could get all forged pieces and do the same thing but you would still be limited to 400 HP as that is the limit of our crank. Oh yeah you wouldn't want to use the rods fromt eh 1.8L as they do not use oil squirters and the 2.0L does according to BEGI.
April-21st-2002, 01:43 PM
#4
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 87
Originally posted by chdesign
You want to run more boost in a F engine??? Well here you go. Take a set of 7MGTE pistons and rings. Take the rods from a 89-00 SOHC escort machine the wrist pin hole to fit the supra pin and machine the width of the rod down to .858 shot peen and balance the rods. Knife edge your crank .275 and put a .080 offset on the crank as well to clear the rods. Use the rod bearings from the escort. And there you go a 2.2L stroker good for 400 hp without using forged internals... I've done my homework on this one it does work. If you wanted to you could get all forged pieces and do the same thing but you would still be limited to 400 HP as that is the limit of our crank. Oh yeah you wouldn't want to use the rods fromt eh 1.8L as they do not use oil squirters and the 2.0L does according to BEGI.
You want to run more boost in a F engine??? Well here you go. Take a set of 7MGTE pistons and rings. Take the rods from a 89-00 SOHC escort machine the wrist pin hole to fit the supra pin and machine the width of the rod down to .858 shot peen and balance the rods. Knife edge your crank .275 and put a .080 offset on the crank as well to clear the rods. Use the rod bearings from the escort. And there you go a 2.2L stroker good for 400 hp without using forged internals... I've done my homework on this one it does work. If you wanted to you could get all forged pieces and do the same thing but you would still be limited to 400 HP as that is the limit of our crank. Oh yeah you wouldn't want to use the rods fromt eh 1.8L as they do not use oil squirters and the 2.0L does according to BEGI.
I'm willing to bet the 7MGTE pistons are forged.
That's alot of custom work when you could just get a custom set that YOU could drop in, instead of having the block at a shop for 6 months.
10 bucks says your "research" involved talking to thomas knight. His ideas for building bottom ends of things never seem to be as "drop in" as he makes them sound. In fact, more than one prober has sold his whole car because of getting frustrated after months of trying to get TKT's bottom end kits which are parts for other engines to work.
April-21st-2002, 09:38 PM
#5
Jedi Master Yoda
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 528
the 7MGTE pistons are not forged. They are Hypereutectic and ceramic coated pistons. And yes some of my research did come from talking to TKT but some of it also came from teh other FS engine I have and taking measurments of it.
April-22nd-2002, 02:20 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 48
For a set of JE Pistons you can reference my Purchase Order: Order No. 241567. I recommend talking with Stacy (a guy).
For Crower Rods you can reference my Work Order No. E34472. Part No. B93970B
These were for my 96 2.0L FS Ford Probe. The only dimensional change that was made, was I had the wrist pin diameter increased from 19mm to 20mm (I believe those are the numbers)
Yeah, I never quit understood why people try an piece together parts from all differnent make and models, modify them to make them fit. Just sound questionable to me. TKT seems to be notoreous for this too, at least from what I have heard. I hear some crazy stuff.
For Crower Rods you can reference my Work Order No. E34472. Part No. B93970B
These were for my 96 2.0L FS Ford Probe. The only dimensional change that was made, was I had the wrist pin diameter increased from 19mm to 20mm (I believe those are the numbers)
Yeah, I never quit understood why people try an piece together parts from all differnent make and models, modify them to make them fit. Just sound questionable to me. TKT seems to be notoreous for this too, at least from what I have heard. I hear some crazy stuff.
May-1st-2002, 01:00 PM
#9
Im fastr then u think u r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto IS NOT Canada
Posts: 257
CHdesign please read...
I was thinking of a relatively easy (or easier) setup. Are the 1.8L FD and 2.0L FS engines not alike...bore 85mm vs. 92mm? This was my unprofessional thought.
I'm use to Fords where almost anything will interchange even between engine families.
I'd think that the crank, connecting rods or pistons would be different (by 7mm?). If you could mix and match the parts, you would net a lower compression ratio (about 8.4:1 from 9.1:1 based on 7mm shorter stroke.) If all three parts are different then they might not interchange, but if the connecting rods are common (for the sake of arguing) the pistons and crank would interchange.
Has anyone (or have you) measured these parts or have the values available.
I've never pulled one of these engines apart or even seen inside an F-series, my opinion is not professional, and I mean no dirt!
I'm use to Fords where almost anything will interchange even between engine families.
I'd think that the crank, connecting rods or pistons would be different (by 7mm?). If you could mix and match the parts, you would net a lower compression ratio (about 8.4:1 from 9.1:1 based on 7mm shorter stroke.) If all three parts are different then they might not interchange, but if the connecting rods are common (for the sake of arguing) the pistons and crank would interchange.
Has anyone (or have you) measured these parts or have the values available.
I've never pulled one of these engines apart or even seen inside an F-series, my opinion is not professional, and I mean no dirt!
May-6th-2002, 10:00 PM
#10
Im fastr then u think u r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto IS NOT Canada
Posts: 257
Who sells the pistons?
I've seen a few pistons available (CorkSport for one) but they all seem to be 10:1+ CR. I'd hazard a guess you couldn't machine them enough to drop below my ideal approx 8.5:1 without weakening them?
May-7th-2002, 10:42 AM
#11
Protege God
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 1,525
Re: CHdesign please read...
The 1.8L FP engine and 2.0L FS engines are very similar. The bore is the same at 83mm, and the stroke is different at 85mm vs. 92mm. I'm not positive about the connecting rods, but it is quite likely that they are the same. The difference in stroke would mean the pistons and crankshaft would be different, so it might be possible to mix and match the parts to come up with a custom compression ratio. The stock 9.1:1 compression ratio isn't all that high however, so if you're looking to run more boost than the stock setup can handle, you would probably be better off with custom forged pistons, and possibly rods.
Originally posted by RebelRacing
I was thinking of a relatively easy (or easier) setup. Are the 1.8L FD and 2.0L FS engines not alike...bore 85mm vs. 92mm? This was my unprofessional thought.
I'm use to Fords where almost anything will interchange even between engine families.
I'd think that the crank, connecting rods or pistons would be different (by 7mm?). If you could mix and match the parts, you would net a lower compression ratio (about 8.4:1 from 9.1:1 based on 7mm shorter stroke.) If all three parts are different then they might not interchange, but if the connecting rods are common (for the sake of arguing) the pistons and crank would interchange.
Has anyone (or have you) measured these parts or have the values available.
I've never pulled one of these engines apart or even seen inside an F-series, my opinion is not professional, and I mean no dirt!
I was thinking of a relatively easy (or easier) setup. Are the 1.8L FD and 2.0L FS engines not alike...bore 85mm vs. 92mm? This was my unprofessional thought.
I'm use to Fords where almost anything will interchange even between engine families.
I'd think that the crank, connecting rods or pistons would be different (by 7mm?). If you could mix and match the parts, you would net a lower compression ratio (about 8.4:1 from 9.1:1 based on 7mm shorter stroke.) If all three parts are different then they might not interchange, but if the connecting rods are common (for the sake of arguing) the pistons and crank would interchange.
Has anyone (or have you) measured these parts or have the values available.
I've never pulled one of these engines apart or even seen inside an F-series, my opinion is not professional, and I mean no dirt!
May-8th-2002, 07:28 PM
#12
Im fastr then u think u r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto IS NOT Canada
Posts: 257
On the note of weak parts...
I'd believe the engine would be better off running with less compression and more boost. With a hybrid crank setup, the piston travel would be less, leading to less bearing and pin wear (minimal, but none the less). Also, the higher the compression ratio, the higher (above average) the internal heat of the engine will be after boost situations.
When the Marlborough F1 team was using turbos, they found that running the same motor and changing the compression and boost levels lead to longer race engine life(CR - unknown, boost from 26psi to 60psi)--so says Yutaka Otobe, Honda Formula1 program '88-'92
When the Marlborough F1 team was using turbos, they found that running the same motor and changing the compression and boost levels lead to longer race engine life(CR - unknown, boost from 26psi to 60psi)--so says Yutaka Otobe, Honda Formula1 program '88-'92
May-11th-2002, 09:58 PM
#13
MP3 Owner
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 568
Originally posted by BryanPendleton
For a set of JE Pistons you can reference my Purchase Order: Order No. 241567. I recommend talking with Stacy (a guy).
For Crower Rods you can reference my Work Order No. E34472. Part No. B93970B
These were for my 96 2.0L FS Ford Probe. The only dimensional change that was made, was I had the wrist pin diameter increased from 19mm to 20mm (I believe those are the numbers)
Yeah, I never quit understood why people try an piece together parts from all differnent make and models, modify them to make them fit. Just sound questionable to me. TKT seems to be notoreous for this too, at least from what I have heard. I hear some crazy stuff.
For a set of JE Pistons you can reference my Purchase Order: Order No. 241567. I recommend talking with Stacy (a guy).
For Crower Rods you can reference my Work Order No. E34472. Part No. B93970B
These were for my 96 2.0L FS Ford Probe. The only dimensional change that was made, was I had the wrist pin diameter increased from 19mm to 20mm (I believe those are the numbers)
Yeah, I never quit understood why people try an piece together parts from all differnent make and models, modify them to make them fit. Just sound questionable to me. TKT seems to be notoreous for this too, at least from what I have heard. I hear some crazy stuff.
What was your intension with this set-up Bryan? Is this set-up good for boosting or is it more of an N/A set-up? I might be doing something like this and I'm thinking about going turbo down the road. I would like to run 10-15 pounds of boost, would this set-up be a good(safe) foundation for that?
Last edited by MP3-Owner; May-11th-2002 at 10:01 PM.
May-12th-2002, 04:21 PM
#14
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 87
Originally posted by MP3-Owner
What was your intension with this set-up Bryan? Is this set-up good for boosting or is it more of an N/A set-up? I might be doing something like this and I'm thinking about going turbo down the road. I would like to run 10-15 pounds of boost, would this set-up be a good(safe) foundation for that?
What was your intension with this set-up Bryan? Is this set-up good for boosting or is it more of an N/A set-up? I might be doing something like this and I'm thinking about going turbo down the road. I would like to run 10-15 pounds of boost, would this set-up be a good(safe) foundation for that?
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