Engine Swap - FS-ZE and KL-ZE
October-29th-2002, 12:07 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Northern Virginia Near D.C.
Posts: 35
Engine Swap - FS-ZE and KL-ZE
I really thought getting the intake and exhaust camshafts, doing the rings and pistons (high compression) and a few other mods would be better than a complete engine swap.
I think that after you do all the math with labor parts and headache, the engine swap brings you out on top and your wallet may be a little thinner than the mod path, but you will know you have it running right.
I want pros and cons to an engine swap - and suggestions on where to get engines, and what to look for.
Also if anyone has the FS-ZE and a turbo, please respond with thoughts as thats what I plan to do.
I think that after you do all the math with labor parts and headache, the engine swap brings you out on top and your wallet may be a little thinner than the mod path, but you will know you have it running right.
I want pros and cons to an engine swap - and suggestions on where to get engines, and what to look for.
Also if anyone has the FS-ZE and a turbo, please respond with thoughts as thats what I plan to do.
October-29th-2002, 03:01 PM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,122
I don't know what year car you have, but you're posting in the 3g section so I'll assume it's a 99-03 model.
If so, a KL-ZE is NOT a "bolt-in" swap. It may not fit at all; they won't fit into a 95-98 Protege due to inadequate firewall clearance, and the engine compartment in a 99+ is not much larger. Even if it will physically fit, you will probably have to custom fabricate a front crossmember because the BJ-chassis Protege does not come with a V-6 anywhere in the world (unlike the earlier generations) and the earlier V-6 crossmember won't bolt up because of changes to the front suspension.
The FS-ZE will work tho.
If so, a KL-ZE is NOT a "bolt-in" swap. It may not fit at all; they won't fit into a 95-98 Protege due to inadequate firewall clearance, and the engine compartment in a 99+ is not much larger. Even if it will physically fit, you will probably have to custom fabricate a front crossmember because the BJ-chassis Protege does not come with a V-6 anywhere in the world (unlike the earlier generations) and the earlier V-6 crossmember won't bolt up because of changes to the front suspension.
The FS-ZE will work tho.
October-29th-2002, 03:17 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 2,339
Just curious, but why not look into the BEGI turbo kit? I believe the final price is right about $3500, and that'll give you a nice kick in the pants. THEN, if you feel necessary, you can do upgraded internals to run some higher boost.
With big power, you'll have to worry about the tranny too, torque kills.
With big power, you'll have to worry about the tranny too, torque kills.
October-29th-2002, 05:25 PM
#4
Use this to install stuff
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 1,069
Originally posted by carguycw
I don't know what year car you have, but you're posting in the 3g section so I'll assume it's a 99-03 model.
If so, a KL-ZE is NOT a "bolt-in" swap. It may not fit at all; they won't fit into a 95-98 Protege due to inadequate firewall clearance, and the engine compartment in a 99+ is not much larger. Even if it will physically fit, you will probably have to custom fabricate a front crossmember because the BJ-chassis Protege does not come with a V-6 anywhere in the world (unlike the earlier generations) and the earlier V-6 crossmember won't bolt up because of changes to the front suspension.
The FS-ZE will work tho.
I don't know what year car you have, but you're posting in the 3g section so I'll assume it's a 99-03 model.
If so, a KL-ZE is NOT a "bolt-in" swap. It may not fit at all; they won't fit into a 95-98 Protege due to inadequate firewall clearance, and the engine compartment in a 99+ is not much larger. Even if it will physically fit, you will probably have to custom fabricate a front crossmember because the BJ-chassis Protege does not come with a V-6 anywhere in the world (unlike the earlier generations) and the earlier V-6 crossmember won't bolt up because of changes to the front suspension.
The FS-ZE will work tho.
As far as a Turbo with the higher compression FS-ZE, you would need to learn how to tune your car and tune it well. Do not skimp out on controlling the boost and A/F ratio etc... I would personally invest in a stand alone system to controll it. If you are looking for the highest amount of boost and power you can get, it would be easier to boost the stock engine before the ZE. Low boost fast spooling high compression engines work great, but the higher the boost on a high compression engine, the more likely you see a very expensive grenade if you don't know what you are doing. If you just throw in a ZE and a turbo and screw the engine management you will hear the word "leakdown" more often
October-30th-2002, 10:45 AM
#5
Half-assed sport 20
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Greenbelt, MD
Posts: 564
Re: Engine Swap - FS-ZE and KL-ZE
Originally posted by Shingo
Also if anyone has the FS-ZE and a turbo, please respond with thoughts as thats what I plan to do.
Also if anyone has the FS-ZE and a turbo, please respond with thoughts as thats what I plan to do.
Go high compression OR turbo. Sure you can turbo the fs-ze but, is it worth it? Probably not.
FS-ZE ~2K
install ~1.5K
FM turbo kit ~3.5K
install ~0.5K
stand alone ECU + install + tuning ~ 2K
so, unless you install everything yourself your looking at close to $10 thousand. I'm sure you'll want extras like gauges too. If you got the money go for it but, you're better off turboing whatever engine you currently have IMHO.
November-1st-2002, 11:37 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Northern Virginia Near D.C.
Posts: 35
Yeah, I got 01 blue MP3 - thanks Hank
I want a turbo -
I wanna know what gauges and timers are popular and whats good bad and UGLY.
I ahve chosent to go turbo, the engine swap sounds too much like a home loan. And I dont think I can afford much more than a turbo.
all the MP3 needs is an extra 35 to 50 horse power.
Thanks so far guys, keep the replies commin.
I wanna know what gauges and timers are popular and whats good bad and UGLY.
I ahve chosent to go turbo, the engine swap sounds too much like a home loan. And I dont think I can afford much more than a turbo.
all the MP3 needs is an extra 35 to 50 horse power.
Thanks so far guys, keep the replies commin.
November-1st-2002, 03:23 PM
#8
Always Flippin The Game
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 558
Hello,
I have posted in quite a few threads on the subject of the FS-ZE and Turbo...I have both. The FS-ZE is really rated at about 160 HP in US standards. You will not get that HP without the FS-ZE ECU (which is OBD I), Tunning, or a Stand Alone ECU/Engine management. I have dynoed my MP3 with the FS-ZE before the Turbo, and was slightly dissappointed. I had 120 WHP, and 121 WTQ. I have since then gone with the BEGI/FM Turbo kit. The 1st thing I did was change the compression to the 9.1:1. Basically, I have the same compression as the FS-DE engine, but I retained the FS-ZE Cams. With the turbo, I am much happier. I kill stock Mustang GT's on the highway all the time. My advice to you....save that $4000 + you would spend for the engine swap, and go with the turbo. If you don't, you will kick yourself!
I have posted in quite a few threads on the subject of the FS-ZE and Turbo...I have both. The FS-ZE is really rated at about 160 HP in US standards. You will not get that HP without the FS-ZE ECU (which is OBD I), Tunning, or a Stand Alone ECU/Engine management. I have dynoed my MP3 with the FS-ZE before the Turbo, and was slightly dissappointed. I had 120 WHP, and 121 WTQ. I have since then gone with the BEGI/FM Turbo kit. The 1st thing I did was change the compression to the 9.1:1. Basically, I have the same compression as the FS-DE engine, but I retained the FS-ZE Cams. With the turbo, I am much happier. I kill stock Mustang GT's on the highway all the time. My advice to you....save that $4000 + you would spend for the engine swap, and go with the turbo. If you don't, you will kick yourself!
November-1st-2002, 03:32 PM
#9
Always Flippin The Game
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 558
Re: Yeah, I got 01 blue MP3 - thanks Hank
Originally posted by Shingo
I want a turbo -
I wanna know what gauges and timers are popular and whats good bad and UGLY.
I ahve chosent to go turbo, the engine swap sounds too much like a home loan. And I dont think I can afford much more than a turbo.
all the MP3 needs is an extra 35 to 50 horse power.
Thanks so far guys, keep the replies commin.
I want a turbo -
I wanna know what gauges and timers are popular and whats good bad and UGLY.
I ahve chosent to go turbo, the engine swap sounds too much like a home loan. And I dont think I can afford much more than a turbo.
all the MP3 needs is an extra 35 to 50 horse power.
Thanks so far guys, keep the replies commin.
*EGT (exhaust gas temperature)
*A/F(Air/Fuel) Ratio --Not Autometer, but an accurate one!
*Fuel Pressure
FM has a nice A/F Ratio-EGT combo gauge that has both!
If you get a fuel pressure gauge, go electronic. More expensive, but worth it!
Turbo timers would be a waste of money on the FM kit since it is water and oil cooled. All you have to do is stay out of boost about 30-60 seconds before parking and shutting your ride off.
I hope all this info helps!
-Patrick
November-2nd-2002, 12:01 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6
Originally posted by Linuxninja
Hello,
I have posted in quite a few threads on the subject of the FS-ZE and Turbo...I have both. The FS-ZE is really rated at about 160 HP in US standards. You will not get that HP without the FS-ZE ECU (which is OBD I), Tunning, or a Stand Alone ECU/Engine management. I have dynoed my MP3 with the FS-ZE before the Turbo, and was slightly dissappointed. I had 120 WHP, and 121 WTQ. I have since then gone with the BEGI/FM Turbo kit. The 1st thing I did was change the compression to the 9.1:1. Basically, I have the same compression as the FS-DE engine, but I retained the FS-ZE Cams. With the turbo, I am much happier. I kill stock Mustang GT's on the highway all the time. My advice to you....save that $4000 + you would spend for the engine swap, and go with the turbo. If you don't, you will kick yourself!
Hello,
I have posted in quite a few threads on the subject of the FS-ZE and Turbo...I have both. The FS-ZE is really rated at about 160 HP in US standards. You will not get that HP without the FS-ZE ECU (which is OBD I), Tunning, or a Stand Alone ECU/Engine management. I have dynoed my MP3 with the FS-ZE before the Turbo, and was slightly dissappointed. I had 120 WHP, and 121 WTQ. I have since then gone with the BEGI/FM Turbo kit. The 1st thing I did was change the compression to the 9.1:1. Basically, I have the same compression as the FS-DE engine, but I retained the FS-ZE Cams. With the turbo, I am much happier. I kill stock Mustang GT's on the highway all the time. My advice to you....save that $4000 + you would spend for the engine swap, and go with the turbo. If you don't, you will kick yourself!
It would be cheaper than buying a turbo but if it's not going to be that much more power then forget it.
Oh yeah, and what brand dyno did you use?
Last edited by djoye; November-2nd-2002 at 12:05 PM.
November-2nd-2002, 12:29 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6
Originally posted by TheMAN
It's not so "rediculous" if you consider the fact that the engine is running on the stock ECU. It was mentioned already that it's impossible to run the j-spec ecu.
It's not so "rediculous" if you consider the fact that the engine is running on the stock ECU. It was mentioned already that it's impossible to run the j-spec ecu.
Thanks
November-3rd-2002, 11:20 PM
#12
Half-assed sport 20
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Greenbelt, MD
Posts: 564
Originally posted by djoye
doh, oh ok. Well I know a person that can modify ECU programs so could I just have my US-spec ECU modified to take advantage of the FS-ZE engine?
Thanks
doh, oh ok. Well I know a person that can modify ECU programs so could I just have my US-spec ECU modified to take advantage of the FS-ZE engine?
Thanks
gauges:
-boost (necessary)
-EGT (necessary)
-fuel pressure (recommended)
-oil pressure (recommended)
-Air/Fuel (recommended, not necessary)
A/F guages can only accurately tell you if you're running rich or lean. They aren't very accurate in between the extremes. If you're going for looks, digital A/F gauges *look* cool. If you want A/F accuracy you need a wideband O2 sensor, which will cost quite a bit and isn't necessary.
Figure out where you want to put the gauges (A-pillar, center console, etc). Also, gauges come in different sizes (52mm, 60mm, etc). Blitz, HKS, and Autometer make nice gauges. One or more companies have gauges with a cool little black light built in.
*skip the turbo timer (like linux said). just wait ~1min before shutting the car down.
**neither turbos or engine swaps are cheap. remember to budget for unforseen costs. ***
November-4th-2002, 12:08 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6
I dunno if you're talking to me or the other guy but I've got a 1998 626. I'm somewhat sure that the chip in the ECU pops out. I had Jet do my ECU and they replaced the old chip with a new one and put tape around it to hold it in, heh.
I don't know for sure but I'm assuming it can be taken out and reprogrammed. I'm assuming this because I saw an advertisement for Jet and it showed them doing a Ford Lightning where the ECU looked exactly the same. It shows them removing the OEM chip and dropping the bigger modified program chip in and putting the tape over it.
I don't know for sure but I'm assuming it can be taken out and reprogrammed. I'm assuming this because I saw an advertisement for Jet and it showed them doing a Ford Lightning where the ECU looked exactly the same. It shows them removing the OEM chip and dropping the bigger modified program chip in and putting the tape over it.
Originally posted by eeterp
The ECU in your protege cannot simply be re-flashed or chipped. Piggybacks don't even work (at least I haven't found any that do).
gauges:
-boost (necessary)
-EGT (necessary)
-fuel pressure (recommended)
-oil pressure (recommended)
-Air/Fuel (recommended, not necessary)
A/F guages can only accurately tell you if you're running rich or lean. They aren't very accurate in between the extremes. If you're going for looks, digital A/F gauges *look* cool. If you want A/F accuracy you need a wideband O2 sensor, which will cost quite a bit and isn't necessary.
Figure out where you want to put the gauges (A-pillar, center console, etc). Also, gauges come in different sizes (52mm, 60mm, etc). Blitz, HKS, and Autometer make nice gauges. One or more companies have gauges with a cool little black light built in.
*skip the turbo timer (like linux said). just wait ~1min before shutting the car down.
**neither turbos or engine swaps are cheap. remember to budget for unforseen costs. ***
The ECU in your protege cannot simply be re-flashed or chipped. Piggybacks don't even work (at least I haven't found any that do).
gauges:
-boost (necessary)
-EGT (necessary)
-fuel pressure (recommended)
-oil pressure (recommended)
-Air/Fuel (recommended, not necessary)
A/F guages can only accurately tell you if you're running rich or lean. They aren't very accurate in between the extremes. If you're going for looks, digital A/F gauges *look* cool. If you want A/F accuracy you need a wideband O2 sensor, which will cost quite a bit and isn't necessary.
Figure out where you want to put the gauges (A-pillar, center console, etc). Also, gauges come in different sizes (52mm, 60mm, etc). Blitz, HKS, and Autometer make nice gauges. One or more companies have gauges with a cool little black light built in.
*skip the turbo timer (like linux said). just wait ~1min before shutting the car down.
**neither turbos or engine swaps are cheap. remember to budget for unforseen costs. ***
Last edited by djoye; November-4th-2002 at 12:12 AM.
November-4th-2002, 09:20 AM
#14
Always Flippin The Game
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 558
Originally posted by eeterp
**neither turbos or engine swaps are cheap. remember to budget for unforseen costs. ***
**neither turbos or engine swaps are cheap. remember to budget for unforseen costs. ***
Glad to see YOUR FS-ZE is holding up nicely.
November-4th-2002, 10:58 PM
#15
Half-assed sport 20
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Greenbelt, MD
Posts: 564
Originally posted by djoye
I had Jet do my ECU and they replaced the old chip with a new one and put tape around it to hold it in, heh.
I had Jet do my ECU and they replaced the old chip with a new one and put tape around it to hold it in, heh.
Personally, I don't think JET does much other than fooling the ECU by inputing different intake air temps. This has little effect on performance and NO effect at WOT. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Linux,
the FS-ZE is doing...well...ok. It's not FAST IMHO and it's not going to be. It's a legit mid to high 15 second car and I'm happy with that. I'm eager to see how your turbo setup turns out. Good luck!
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