teamDFL

So I am almost certain that my next race car will be a 1st gen Pro. However, before I can completely eliminate the opposition (Golf GTI) I need a little more information.

First can someone give me the gear ratios and final drive. Since I can't change these and remain FSP legal, this is a big deal. All transmissions fit in all Pro's would be most appreciated as I am legally allowed to pick anyone of them.

Second can some one please give me the distance from the intake face on the cylinder head to the firewall. I'll let you figure out why, but here is a hint:


Throttle Bodies

If you want to read about my efforts, go to:
teamDFL Racing

Thanks for all your help.

teamDFL

Thanks for all the help. The gear ratios seem nice and close in 2nd through 5th, but the jump from first to second is pretty steep. Shifting at the 7500 rpm factory fuel cut the rpm will drop to a theoretical 4100 rpm or so. Hopefully, I will be able to maintain a torque band of sufficent width. With 15 inches I should be able to run a decent length intake system and maintain some semblence of troque below 4500 rpm. (Now you see how these two question were related!) Unfortunately I have been unable to find a DCOE type manifold, so I am planning on have some adaptor plates custom machine out 7075 T-6 aluminum to mount the throttle bodies to. CNC some ports to roughly match the head and throttle bodies and do a final match with a die grinder. That will also allow me to tap into each port to run reference to the MAP sensor on the DPFI. I have just order one through a group buy at:
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
I will probably have to construct a minature log plenum to equalize pulsations, but that is easy enough.

My question now is, does the ignition system run independently of the fuel system or is it all the same ECU? Obviously I have no intention of running the stock fuel system, but if the ignition is a traditional distributor type (NO I don't mean points, not that traditional for Chrissake!) I can maintain that and run a simple amplifier ala MSD. Thanks again for all the info.

teamDFL

Unfortunately the trick Toda pieces and alternate gear ratios you wirte about are not legal in Street Prepared. The engine internals must be as factory or factory approved stock replacements. Sounds boring, I know, but it is much easier on the checkbook than those series which allow for internal mods to the engine and trans.

As for the lack of torque from individual throttle bodies, it is partially from the extra size, but also from the shorter length. As I understand it, long runners promote good low end torque. Yet another reason I asked about the firewall clearance. Ram pipes will help a lot.

I have read about the problems with the HLA from my friends with Miatas. They say that fresh HLA's and 5w-30 will allow for no float to the 7500 rpm readline. Is there any other way than solid lifters to increase this? I have read of a larger bore unit that is a factory replacement (and hence legal) but does it really help?

So, in LEGAL street prepared trim where I can change the intake and exhaust to whatever I want, run underdrive pulleys, a lightened flywheel and any ignition system, what kind of power (both hp and torque) can I expect?

teamDFL

Actually, what you have written is a lot of help. I did not know about the Protege having a milder cam than the Miata. That is disappointing. Do you know if there are any differences between the first gen and second gen motors? The SCCA considers them the same car for update and backdate purposes, so I can legally swap in the ENTIRE motor. Unfortunately, I am not allowed to mix and match internals from different years, but if the 2nd gen motor is hotter, I'll pop one in after I inevitabley blow up the first.

I am going to use the Mega Squirt stand alone fuel system. It is part of the DIY EFI group buy and you have to solder it together and program it yourself. However, at $100, it is too good to pass up. After that I will make my own wiring loom, most likley using high quality, GM type, weather pack connectprs for reliability. For injectors, I cannot use the factory units as they will be the wrong physical size (flow rate, from what I gather, will be sufficent) because all available throttle bodies have injector ports sized for Bosch standard injectors. My choice will most likely be to get one of my friends who is doing the same thing to split and 8 pack of Ford Motorsport 30 lb/hr injectors. All the fuel flow I will ever need for $110 total.

The big question remains ingnition control. I could throw in the old spring and weight style distributor from he old 323's, but that is a step backward in my opinion. If I can find the funds, a E48EXPi from DTA Fast would be my first choice. The integrated launch control system and no lift shift feature would surely lower lap times. On a more realistic front, I am more liekly to hook up an MSD computer, but since that is $360 and requires a $130 6A box, I am not sure that the DTA Fast unit isn't better. I just have to figure out what can be easily triggered.

This was all planned before I thought about the Protege, so I am trying to make sure that it will fit my requirements. Decking the block and skimming th head, both retard cam I think, which helps top end. Since adjustable cam gears are illegal, this is my only option.

Since you mentioned it, who makes a good exhaust?

teamDFL

Thanks again for your help. I see you have taken up my cause on the EGT board you recommended. I think I will go with the Protege because in Solo Street Prepared I have a much greater number of options. Plus, the whole orphan thing for the EGT really sucks.

It has been my experience that anyone who tells you a ported manifold is as good as a header must be selling ported manifolds! A tuned length header can beat a manifold in both power and flexibility any day. For an exhaust, I'll be using a Supertrapp and try to tune it to the track. Run more back pressure and better torque on hillclimbs, then open it up for ripping down long road course straights. Whay diameter pipe would recomend for the primaries. I seem to remember that 1 3/8" are good for about 35 hp each before they become a restriction. My current car has 1.5" on a 2.5 six cylinder and (coupled with a BEEEG cam) has pretty soft response below 4500 rpm. I want to see if I can get 80% of peak torque from 3500 to 7000 rpm. With the gearing info you provided, that should mean I can really use the power well and not have to downshift all the time. Do you think this is a realistic goal? From what I have seen, that means I'll only have to extend the top end by 500 rpm as according to the specs I have seen, it is still making 101 lb/ft at 6500 rpm. From what you have told me (and what I remember driving an EGT about 5 years ago) the car pulls pretty well even at 3000 rpm, so I don't think 3500 is unreasonable even with headers and a free intake.

I will not do anything that will make the motor interfernce fit. I have enough valves with chicanes in them already thank you! Since I am not allowed to change cams and have no worries when it comes to coil bind, the shimming idea seems like a good one. If the later spring is stiffer, it would be legal for me to use as long as I had the other components to match. Unless the factory manual says so, I probably can't run the thick shim and the stiff valve spring which would most likely be the best combo. Although, the increase in weight might not pay. I should probably just run what I get, and install the hot parts later.

I would really appreciate a picture of the distributor so I can see what kind it is. That way I can determine what ignition system to run. It is unfortunate that the timing is not adjustable exceot for base timing. Does any one run a timing control unit that you know of?

One more thing, how much should I expect to pay for a 90 or 91 LX with as few options as possible? Only requirements are NO wrecks and no sunroof. Thanks again.

teamDFL

Fantastic info. The dyno chart shows me exactly what I thought was possible with this motor. I know from my experience with BMW's that VAF's inherently restrict flow and that repleacing them almost always yields top end power. Just check the latest edition of Grassroots Motorsports, where they replace the VAF on both a Mazda and a BMW and gain good power. With the Street Prepared rules I should be able to eliminate all intake and exhaust restrictions. Go to my website, in particular SP Mods to see what I am talking about interms of potential. Out of all the cars I have considered, the Mazda head wins the flow potential test.

The header sure is pretty, but I am not sure if it would be the right one for my application. I have always thought that a shorty was best for midrange, while longer primaries and a four into one design was optimum for top end. Now, I now that it isn't a hard and fast rule, because there are many long tube designs which boost midrange more than shorties. I know there are companies that will make headers for most any car, and since the engine is such a known quantity from use in the Miata, I can probably find someone who would know the correct spec pretty easily. Really disappointing that there aren't units commercially available. If I find someone good, I'll post it here and perhaps others might be interested in ordering one too.

If you could direct me to the link with the distributor internals pictured that would really help. I searched for a while, but I can't see it. Do you know if it is an optical trigger, magntic or Hall effect? As for contacting someone who holds on to super secret information, forget it. I have put up with that crap for years with the BMW crowd. People who insist that they have THE trick part direct from Klaus von Weinersucker in Germany and won't give you any information on how they got it or what is like. My experience is that these people know very little and just pretend to know more than you. This is amateur motorsport for crying out loud. Last time I checked, first and last pay the same amount: JACK! Sorry for the rant, but in case you can't tell from my web page, I believe in the free exchange of information. I will certainly let everyone know what I do and why if I go with a Pro.

Since LX's are hard to find without a big hole over your head, how hard is it convert a DX to DOHC? I could find one with zero options and a lot of miles for very little cash and bolt in all the other goodies. Since I will be running DPFI, the wiring will not be a big hassle. Are the brakes and suspension stuff the same? What is the going rate for a DOHC and trans with less than 40K on it? This might be a good way for me to go as it would allow for me to select an engine with low miles. I will most likely replace all wear parts anyway, so that is not a big deal. I saw a DX locally that had a banged fender and 180K for $300.

Thanks again. This is the kind of info I need to convince me that the Protege is the right car to run.