NoahsMP5

I watched this last night on 60 minutes. I was so dam mad by the end of it.
Another thing they mentionedis that 12 people a day die waiting for heart transplants.

(CBS) An armed robber gets a million-dollar heart transplant. A murderer awaits a cancer procedure after having a $160,000 quadruple bypass operation. It’s enough to make the law-abiding people whose taxes footed the bill wonder who is getting punished.

Steve Kroftexplores the ethical quandary posed by prisoners’ rights to health care in a 60 Minutes report.

Steve Green of the California Corrections Department says he had no choice but to allow the heart transplant on the inmate, whose name he will not release. "He sued. The U.S. District Court ruled that he was entitled to the transplant. So we have direct court rulings saying that we will meet medical needs of our inmates," he says.

This angers Los Angeles Times columnist Steve Lopez, whose father with heart trouble had his health insurance cancelled at one point. "What’s the message here to the public? ... You had two robbery convictions, you’re in jail, you get sick, you’re going to the top of the [transplant waiting] line. That’s the problem here," says Lopez.

Lopez cites a man who was told he needed $150,000 he didn’t have to get on the list for a heart transplant. "Now, here’s a guy who works for a living and has three kids. Why should he have to give up everything he’s worked for while somebody in prison is getting the best treatment available?" asks Lopez.

Lopez acknowledges the ethical quandary posed by his reasoning, but believes it’s just "common sense" to defer to the law-abiding citizens over the criminal, especially when it comes to getting on a transplant list.

But medical ethicist Dr. Lawrence Schneiderman says it’s not that simple. "Now we’re starting on the slippery slop. What about people who get a parking ticket?" he asks. Schneiderman says society has made its choice on who gets what kind of care, based mostly on income. "Because we have such a hodgepodge of health care coverage and not universal health care coverage, society has decided who can afford it or were lucky enough to have the right kind of job... or to be lucky enough to be in prison," he tells Kroft.

It’s much more simple to this lucky man. "I’m supposed to be going out anytime within the next two weeks to have a bowel re-section," says Denton Johns, a double murderer who has diabetes and colon cancer. "When I was at Salinas Valley, they did a $160,000 quadruple bypass on me," he tells Kroft.

Johns says he was surprised about the million-dollar transplant, but people shouldn’t be shocked. "They’re saying 'Oh, our tax dollars are going to pay for it.' We’re in the care of the state and the state has to take care of us and do what they can to keep us alive."

arl240

I think one of the big beefs with this is the huge cost. If it was a cold or flu you probably wouldn't think twice about treating the inmate, b/c it wouldn't cost much. Since the guy is incarcerated, he has no ability to seek treatment on his own, therefore the prison has to do it for him. You certainly cannot deny his right to life, simply b/c he has committed a crime (with the exception of capital punishment).

I certainly don't agree with bumping him up to the front of the line for surgery, but I also don't agree with them being put at the back of the line. What's fair is fair, and they should still be treated as any other person would be.

Ahhhh, Canada and medicare.....it has its shortcomings, but I still like it.

I think that last statement was quite intelligent to be honest.

NoahsMP5

That last statment was made by a man that killed 2 people. He has no right to anything!
The thing that pisses me off the most is not the fact of the cost, but they fact that people who have not commited anycrime can't afford basic health care let alone transplants. People in this country who work there whole lives and have families get turned down because they can't put up 150000 as a down payment.
These people commited crimes , these are rapist, murders, and theives. We owe them nothing .

arl240

Hey, that's your country not mine. Everyone up here does have equal access to healthcare (as tainted as it is). You wanted full capitalism, you got it.

And one of the big problems about having high moral standards (as the States do) is that you have to treat your criminals well, whether you like it or not. Otherwise, you will end up having third world prisons, and spitting in the face of civility. And yes, you don't owe the criminals anything, but you do owe your country and its forefathers. If you don't like the current morality laws of your country, I suggest you try Iraq, they have the type of prisons you are looking for. Boy am I a bitch.

Kincaid

Yeah that's true arl. In some respects.

In this part of the world we have a much better situation than a lot of humanity.

And I see where you guys are coming from. It is indeed bullshit. However, it is highly unlikely that anything will be done about it. It's probably more fruitful just to look out for each of our own moralities. If we do nothing to assist it[and paying taxes is by order of government, thus no real choice and that wouldn't be considered an individual position] than I think we can be happy in our individual morality.

This world is going to get worse. It's not going to get better. It got incrementally worse with the start of WWI and has continued to worsen up to and including now.

So to stop near insane thinking, as this is what this will drive you to, because the situation in debate makes no sense really[from their viewpoint, that is], your only real choice is too look out for you and your own.

NoahsMP5

I wish our prison system was like some other countries. Might make people think twice about there actions. You think our forefathers would look at this and say good idea?
We owe our children a better education, we owe our citizens food, we owe the father of 3 a heart transplant .
Calafornia alone spends 650 million a year on inmate care, That could buy alot of healthcare coverage for the thousands of childeren who need it. You say the Us has high moral standards( which for the most part I feel we do) but had do you let that happen.
I have a 2 year old little girl that I can't afford to insure but some child molester has complete dental and health insurance.

I am not trying to be a dick but to anyone who wishes to debate this. But this inrages me to no end.

arl240

You're a socialist living in a capitalist country.

The only reason a country should give kids an education is to improve the quality of your workforce, the state only gives food to poor people to keep crime rates lower, and the guy with the heart problem should have made more money, as his health is none of the state's business.

I wish your daughter had health insurance (hell I think every kid deserves it), but you live in the USA, and that is one of your compromises for it. It's a dog eat dog world, you can be a self made millionaire, or not be able to afford the necessities of life.

And about the other prison system comment, like I said, go to Iraq. Remember civil liberties.

NoahsMP5

I take this backYour a dumbass.
He should make more money. Just like that. Good idea, everyone should.

You show compassion for the scum of society but not for the average citizen.

arl240

I should have clarified, these aren't my personal views, these are the views of a pure capitalist, which is a strong Darwinian viewpoint. Anyone who thinks that black and white about the topic....ain't my type. I think medicare is super valuable, even though I as a healthy young well-paid individual am carrying more than my fair share of the tax burden for it. I believe in the common good of the people, hence why I love Canada so much (not saying the States don't, but in health matters its each to his own).

EVEN MORE SO, I deeply respect the laws of society, and if need be would sacrifice my well-being for them. The United States didn't become great by being a tyrant to its own people, it become great by respecting their rights.

I have to restate this again - You can't have the low taxes you do (which are way lower than Canada) without shifting healthcare to the individual. I can't be emphatic towards it b/c as Kincaid said, it's the government doing the dirty work, and their hands are tied by the laws of the country. Cripe, now I am jibber jabbering.

Summing it up, I like Canada healthcare, I agree with the court ruling to the criminals (like the judges who decided), and capitalism ain't always the best way to run a country (as shown in this example).

fossil boy

Well, the US is NOW a capitalist country, but this was not a founding principle (though many folks tend to believe otherwise)
Capitalism, as defined, was a much later concept.
True, economic reasons, partly instigated the Revolutionary War, but our founders focused on individual freedoms and liberties of the citizens, who theoretically, control the path and destiny of our country.
Only later did power and money buy into government: Marbury v. Madison ? {I believe this is correct} allowed for the extension of indiviual rights to corporations. Thus companies now have the same rights as citizens, when in fact, a corporation is inanimate (Incidentially, trees and animals do not have legal rights or standing, though they are indeed living organisms). >end enviro-rant here<
Be all that as it may, the important message is that we are on the verge of destroying the very rights and priviledges that we hold precious, all in the name of "anti terror".
I do not feel safer by losing personal freedoms and rights to privacy. i do not feel safer knowing the US can execute foreigners and Americans (via Hellfire missiles; assasinations, etc.), alledged to be terrorists, without due process of Law.
If Patrick Henry's quote "I regret I have but one life to give for my country" is to have meaning, then, I will risk my personal safety to protect my rights as an American. Our Freedoms are the sole centerpiece of the Constitution, eroding our rights only means our country succumbs and Osama wins...
Think about this: Our ability to speak out or against policy runs the risk of being branded a terrorist, or supporter of terrorism.
I included an "eco-rant" above, b/c indeed, many people excercising their beliefs for environmental causes are termed "eco terrorists" - does this mean the government now has broadened powers to investigate, harass, and incarcerate folks from E.L.F., A.L.F. PETA, etc? At best, these groups are "eco-vandals".
Think about our own history: The Boston Tea Party. Though we revel in such actions in terms of our Country's origins, now, this would be likley be lumped as "terrorism". And none of the participants would be allowed full protection under the law. Yikes!
Next topic: "Conservative Courts and the Miranda Warning: Rights? Yeah, Right"

arl240

Now that was well-written. I love intelligent pieces.

leungwingkei

Well, what I think is that he (the murderer) denied the right to life of the people he killed, a right that is included in the Declaration on Independence? Sorry, I'm not too sure of US leistlature, but I do know that the right to life is a section of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms under the Consitution of Canada. And by denying those rights, the state should gave a right to deny his as he "gave up" his own rights by denying the rights to others.

Installshield

Noah I agree with you entirely. The U.S. is the most powerful nation in the world and that we can't afford health insurance for every citizen is unreal. The budget spent on prisons alone is huge. I understand that there will always be underlying ethical issues with this subject, but come on. A murderer getting a heart transplant, which he probably would not of recieved had he not killed people and then got caught, is ridiculous. I think an inmates family or former insurance company should be expected to pay before the government. If no one can float the bill, too ******* bad. People on death row still recieve full health coverage as well, though I don't know if that 60 min. addressed it. We watched an Eye on America in Sociology about this. Inmates in line to recieve capital punishment recieve everything any other inmates get. They are kept as healthy as possible while on the "The Row". Hundreds of inmates every year that are realesed commit a ******* crime just to thrown back in prison. They realize the benefits of being in prison, and that there is no way they could support themselves on their own. I don't think Inmates should be denied health coverage if the rest of the U.S. wasn't either. A 10 year old child with Luekemia from a 2nd or 3rd class family may not be able to recieve treatment but a Murderer can? What kind of message is that? The 10 year old should go murder his neighbor in order to stay alive? when a person commits a crime they give up their freedom, and their benefits of society. Whether it be a tax evation or a rape. Its greed, plane and simple. I am not saying that prisoners should recieve nothing, just that the rest of the nation comes first.

NoahsMP5

protegeDX

lets face it. this world is corrupted.