Bremerton NT report
July-28th-2003, 07:37 PM
#1
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Bremerton NT report
Hi all,
I just got back from the Bremerton NT this past weekend and, uhh, had fun atleast
I think I drove alright but man, the times were not even close to where I thought I would be. The course was mostly sweeping turns, some tight, others very fast with the Sunday finish well into 3rd gear. Guys, I just cannot get the front tires to hook up at all. Any time I am on the gas while turning, I immediately light up the inside tire. This makes it pretty much impossible to build up any speed in sweepers to approach the limit of the chassis. I have some ideas on how to fix this and I'll see how it goes. My attempt to run with a disconnected front swaybar didn't work out as I cut my leftside outer CV joint with the endlink when I couldn't get the damn thing off.
I ended up 6th out of 9 and other than forward bite the car is wonderful. It could be looser so I think a softer front bar will help both areas. Until I try that I don't think shocks will help since anything stiffer up front will make the problem worse and stiffer in the back won't help coming off corners, either. They might get me looser going in but with no forward bite, I'd just be along for the ride in the spin cycle.
Steve W.
#9 HS
I just got back from the Bremerton NT this past weekend and, uhh, had fun atleast
I think I drove alright but man, the times were not even close to where I thought I would be. The course was mostly sweeping turns, some tight, others very fast with the Sunday finish well into 3rd gear. Guys, I just cannot get the front tires to hook up at all. Any time I am on the gas while turning, I immediately light up the inside tire. This makes it pretty much impossible to build up any speed in sweepers to approach the limit of the chassis. I have some ideas on how to fix this and I'll see how it goes. My attempt to run with a disconnected front swaybar didn't work out as I cut my leftside outer CV joint with the endlink when I couldn't get the damn thing off.I ended up 6th out of 9 and other than forward bite the car is wonderful. It could be looser so I think a softer front bar will help both areas. Until I try that I don't think shocks will help since anything stiffer up front will make the problem worse and stiffer in the back won't help coming off corners, either. They might get me looser going in but with no forward bite, I'd just be along for the ride in the spin cycle.
Steve W.
#9 HS
July-28th-2003, 08:23 PM
#2
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KInda sorry I missed it this year, although I would have run in STX instead of STS (for the Divisional series), but the wife could take the time off from school. But 0.104 out of fifth, and ahead of Karl in the Mini (on Hoosiers), is very respectable.
I don't think there is a cure for the wheelspin, but you might want to go with stiffer rear struts and a bigger (but adjustable) front bar. Why a front bar? Because you limit body roll and therefore both weight-transfer and camber-induced body roll.
Jason is running insanely stiff struts, but still has wheelspin problems, IIRC.
I don't think there is a cure for the wheelspin, but you might want to go with stiffer rear struts and a bigger (but adjustable) front bar. Why a front bar? Because you limit body roll and therefore both weight-transfer and camber-induced body roll.
Jason is running insanely stiff struts, but still has wheelspin problems, IIRC.
Last edited by Davard; July-28th-2003 at 08:27 PM.
July-28th-2003, 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by Davard
KInda sorry I missed it this year, although I would have run in STX instead of STS (for the Divisional series), but the wife could take the time off from school. But 0.104 out of fifth, and ahead of Karl in the Mini (on Hoosiers), is very respectable.
I don't think there is a cure for the wheelspin, but you might want to go with stiffer rear struts and a bigger (but adjustable) front bar. Why a front bar? Because you limit body roll and therefore both weight-transfer and camber-induced body roll.
Jason is running insanely stiff struts, but still has wheelspin problems, IIRC.
KInda sorry I missed it this year, although I would have run in STX instead of STS (for the Divisional series), but the wife could take the time off from school. But 0.104 out of fifth, and ahead of Karl in the Mini (on Hoosiers), is very respectable.
I don't think there is a cure for the wheelspin, but you might want to go with stiffer rear struts and a bigger (but adjustable) front bar. Why a front bar? Because you limit body roll and therefore both weight-transfer and camber-induced body roll.
Jason is running insanely stiff struts, but still has wheelspin problems, IIRC.
haha.Remember last year's NT? I started the weekend with the 22mm bar on my STS Neon and was way back in 5th place. I brought the 19mm bar with me and switched them out overnight. Sunday, I was fastest and had moved up to third. I had similar problems.
Steve W.
July-31st-2003, 04:11 PM
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Now you see why I am moving to STS Not that grip is much better, but the rear bar helps out ALOT!
However, if you are planning on staying in Stock I agree with David. You need something to ACT like a big rear bar.
Adjustable front swaybar or maybe a smaller bar with the AWR endlinks might work. This would reduce body roll- I haven't tried it but it seems like it should work.
REALLY STIFF rear struts (stiff enough to compensate for the smaller rear swaybar). The Bilstein struts on my car make the MP3 suspension feel like a Buick. All you need is the rear struts, I woldn't worry about the front, especially if you plan on an adjustable front swaybar.
I talked to Tony at AWR last night and he said that one of the WC Touring teams had a set of Adjustable Bilsteins... he was going to get back to me with some info on those if they were still available- Custom, of course, not cheap though.
I will note that I have run my car with Bilsteins on the rear and stock shocks upfront. This setup has much less wheel spin, but slower turn-in and transitioning. I searched for a smaller front bar for my car, but all models in 2000 used the same bar. I think your front swaybar may be bigger than the older models- so you could swap out for one of them.
Disconnecting the front swaybar never worked well for me (My Nationals Mistake of 2001)- using stock shocks or the Bilsteins. Just too much body roll to drive it comfortably. It would however pick up the rear wheel which means it was putting the power down to the front. That was before my big revalve on the rear shocks- so I would recommend you try it out when you get some nice shocks.
What size(s) and type of tire are you running?
Did you experiment with adjusting the Toe out in the front or rear at all?
Later
Not that grip is much better, but the rear bar helps out ALOT!However, if you are planning on staying in Stock I agree with David. You need something to ACT like a big rear bar.
Adjustable front swaybar or maybe a smaller bar with the AWR endlinks might work. This would reduce body roll- I haven't tried it but it seems like it should work.
REALLY STIFF rear struts (stiff enough to compensate for the smaller rear swaybar). The Bilstein struts on my car make the MP3 suspension feel like a Buick. All you need is the rear struts, I woldn't worry about the front, especially if you plan on an adjustable front swaybar.
I talked to Tony at AWR last night and he said that one of the WC Touring teams had a set of Adjustable Bilsteins... he was going to get back to me with some info on those if they were still available- Custom, of course, not cheap though.
I will note that I have run my car with Bilsteins on the rear and stock shocks upfront. This setup has much less wheel spin, but slower turn-in and transitioning. I searched for a smaller front bar for my car, but all models in 2000 used the same bar. I think your front swaybar may be bigger than the older models- so you could swap out for one of them.
Disconnecting the front swaybar never worked well for me (My Nationals Mistake of 2001)- using stock shocks or the Bilsteins. Just too much body roll to drive it comfortably. It would however pick up the rear wheel which means it was putting the power down to the front. That was before my big revalve on the rear shocks- so I would recommend you try it out when you get some nice shocks.
What size(s) and type of tire are you running?
Did you experiment with adjusting the Toe out in the front or rear at all?
Later
August-1st-2003, 12:13 AM
#5
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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Originally posted by Jas00x
Adjustable front swaybar or maybe a smaller bar with the AWR endlinks might work. This would reduce body roll- I haven't tried it but it seems like it should work.
I think I can make the stock front bar adjustable. Mine appears to be a hollow tube with the ends smashed flat for the endlink. There appears to be enough flat area to drill another hole inboard of the stock hole and bolt an extention on. From there I would have the stock hole, one hole inboard and a few outboard. This would give me a stiffer and a few softer settings to try. All this is contingent on clearance issues, of course.
REALLY STIFF rear struts (stiff enough to compensate for the smaller rear swaybar). The Bilstein struts on my car make the MP3 suspension feel like a Buick. All you need is the rear struts, I woldn't worry about the front, especially if you plan on an adjustable front swaybar.
I talked to Tony at AWR last night and he said that one of the WC Touring teams had a set of Adjustable Bilsteins... he was going to get back to me with some info on those if they were still available- Custom, of course, not cheap though.
On the particular course courses I ran on last weekend, I don't think shocks would have helped this problem much. The sweepers were long and steady-state. Shocks are part of my future plans for the car, just after I get some $$ and more seat time with it.
[B]I will note that I have run my car with Bilsteins on the rear and stock shocks upfront. This setup has much less wheel spin, but slower turn-in and transitioning. I searched for a smaller front bar for my car, but all models in 2000 used the same bar. I think your front swaybar may be bigger than the older models- so you could swap out for one of them.
Disconnecting the front swaybar never worked well for me (My Nationals Mistake of 2001)- using stock shocks or the Bilsteins. Just too much body roll to drive it comfortably. It would however pick up the rear wheel which means it was putting the power down to the front. That was before my big revalve on the rear shocks- so I would recommend you try it out when you get some nice shocks.[/B}
Yeah, I didn't figure running no bar at all would be ideal but atleast it would have given me an idea of the effect of less roll stiffness up front. By Sunday I was in "fun run" or test session mode since I was so far behind
It was only my second weekend at a low altitude event, my local area is above 3000' and there is a dramatic power difference up here. I suppose seat time in the car is another area to gain time in.
What size(s) and type of tire are you running?
Kumho V700 205/50-15 all around. Not the best tire, nor a 225 up front. Next year I will have 225s up front.
Did you experiment with adjusting the Toe out in the front or rear at all?
Later
Not at this event. I have used toe to adjust my car in the past. I found toe-in helped my Neon power off sweepers but that was to minimize understeer off corners under power, not to cure wheelspin. I haven't messed with the rear toe mainly because you mentioned in a previous thread it didn't do much for you and my car is already at zero and rotates pretty well. I suppose if this softer front swaybar idea works I could try rear toe-out to see if what that does for me.
Thanks, more to follow
Steve W.
P.S. I stopped by my dealer after work today to pick up my license plates. Well, my salesman comes up to say hi and ask how things are going. I showed him a few pictures of my car at the Bremerton NT and he's all excited. He also says they have a new RX-8 on the lot and that I should check it out. When I get out there he's backing it out of its spot for a test drive. COOL! While we're going around the block he says "not to shift until I hit about 8500 rpm, that's were the power really comes on." Upon hearing that I figure I ought to try and get alittle loose around the next turn. Well, I didn't quite go fast enough for that but it was fun. Maybe, I can talk him into bringing it out to the next autocross for a "real" test drive, hehe
Adjustable front swaybar or maybe a smaller bar with the AWR endlinks might work. This would reduce body roll- I haven't tried it but it seems like it should work.
I think I can make the stock front bar adjustable. Mine appears to be a hollow tube with the ends smashed flat for the endlink. There appears to be enough flat area to drill another hole inboard of the stock hole and bolt an extention on. From there I would have the stock hole, one hole inboard and a few outboard. This would give me a stiffer and a few softer settings to try. All this is contingent on clearance issues, of course.
REALLY STIFF rear struts (stiff enough to compensate for the smaller rear swaybar). The Bilstein struts on my car make the MP3 suspension feel like a Buick. All you need is the rear struts, I woldn't worry about the front, especially if you plan on an adjustable front swaybar.
I talked to Tony at AWR last night and he said that one of the WC Touring teams had a set of Adjustable Bilsteins... he was going to get back to me with some info on those if they were still available- Custom, of course, not cheap though.
On the particular course courses I ran on last weekend, I don't think shocks would have helped this problem much. The sweepers were long and steady-state. Shocks are part of my future plans for the car, just after I get some $$ and more seat time with it.
[B]I will note that I have run my car with Bilsteins on the rear and stock shocks upfront. This setup has much less wheel spin, but slower turn-in and transitioning. I searched for a smaller front bar for my car, but all models in 2000 used the same bar. I think your front swaybar may be bigger than the older models- so you could swap out for one of them.
Disconnecting the front swaybar never worked well for me (My Nationals Mistake of 2001)- using stock shocks or the Bilsteins. Just too much body roll to drive it comfortably. It would however pick up the rear wheel which means it was putting the power down to the front. That was before my big revalve on the rear shocks- so I would recommend you try it out when you get some nice shocks.[/B}
Yeah, I didn't figure running no bar at all would be ideal but atleast it would have given me an idea of the effect of less roll stiffness up front. By Sunday I was in "fun run" or test session mode since I was so far behind
It was only my second weekend at a low altitude event, my local area is above 3000' and there is a dramatic power difference up here. I suppose seat time in the car is another area to gain time in.What size(s) and type of tire are you running?
Kumho V700 205/50-15 all around. Not the best tire, nor a 225 up front. Next year I will have 225s up front.
Did you experiment with adjusting the Toe out in the front or rear at all?
Later
Not at this event. I have used toe to adjust my car in the past. I found toe-in helped my Neon power off sweepers but that was to minimize understeer off corners under power, not to cure wheelspin. I haven't messed with the rear toe mainly because you mentioned in a previous thread it didn't do much for you and my car is already at zero and rotates pretty well. I suppose if this softer front swaybar idea works I could try rear toe-out to see if what that does for me.
Thanks, more to follow
Steve W.
P.S. I stopped by my dealer after work today to pick up my license plates. Well, my salesman comes up to say hi and ask how things are going. I showed him a few pictures of my car at the Bremerton NT and he's all excited. He also says they have a new RX-8 on the lot and that I should check it out. When I get out there he's backing it out of its spot for a test drive. COOL! While we're going around the block he says "not to shift until I hit about 8500 rpm, that's were the power really comes on." Upon hearing that I figure I ought to try and get alittle loose around the next turn. Well, I didn't quite go fast enough for that but it was fun. Maybe, I can talk him into bringing it out to the next autocross for a "real" test drive, hehe
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