carguycw

Howdy all,

I'm contemplating doing some serious Stock-legal autocross setup on my 99 ES soon and was curious if anyone out there has any setup tips. Right now, I'm going to concentrate on getting some practice driving on my street tires and stock shocks, but I'm probably going to get some shocks once the Tokico Illuminas come out (rumored to be this summer). Tires will probably come after that; I'm thinking of the new 225/45R15 Kumho Ecsta V700's. If anyone has any thoughts (or knows somebody who does) lemme know

FWIW the car will need to be nationally competitive to win local events. My local competition is Gerry Terranova, the guy who won the last 2 national championships. I figure that if I can beat him, I can beat anybody

Jas00x

Well, as frustrating as it may be, you've got the right mark to aim for! Terranova is an awesome driver. I recently moved down to Gainesville, FL and my main competition is a 96 318i BMW- the 4 dr sport model with the limited slip.
My 00 Protege is probably the most developed Stock-class Protege. Unfortunately, I lost my transmission and had to drive a Civic at the ProSolo last week. Hopefully, my car will be ready to go tomorrow so I can run the Tour event.

OK So here's what I had at nationals- finished 6th
also finished 2nd in ProSolo points

Custom built Bilstein Shocks by AWR
Miata wheels
Hoosier Tires- 225's up front, 205's in the back
K&N air filter
MP3 muffler

Since then:
Shocks revalved by AWR and Bilstein
Hawk Brake Pads
Hoosier tires 205's all the way around

The car handles extremly well! It turns in like a razor and slaloms like nobody's business.

Over the year, I have also played with the alignment a little, and find that you need only very minimal toe out in the front and back- I have been running with 0 Toe and seems to handle great- however, if you are on Kumhos, your results may vary.

My main problem has been wheel hop at the launches, and sometimes exiting turns. I think I may need softer front shocks or try no front sway bar.

Well, it will be cool to have another Protege driver to compare notes with. And it doesn't hurt to have some other good drivers in your area drive your car as you make changes to get a second or third opinion. I'm sure Gerry will be more than willing to help.
Good luck with your project!

jmauld

Hey Jason,

From my experience with the mirage, wheel hop (from power) comes from slop in the suspension and/or drivetrain.

If I stiffen my front shocks, wheel hop does not happen as quickly.

I also polyurethaned my engine mounts (can't do that in stock) and that helped A LOT!

If you're talking about the wheel jumping or bouncing while cornering and not from power then that is probably from shocks being too stiff.

I may have this completely backwards, and just noticed a difference from different driving techniques?????

Jason

carguycw

I've actually got the same alignment- zero toe front and rear. IMHO the car rotates really well that way, a lot better than what I had expected. The car is also very fun to autocross, also a lot better than what I had expected Also, Jas00x, how much front camber have you wound up with? I've got -0.7 degrees left and -1.0 degrees right. Just curious to see how your car compares.

I've also had trouble with the wheel hop while launching and cornering. I'm not sure if it has more to do with the shocks or the notoriously squishy G3 engine mounts. However, I think this often comes with the territory when racing a mostly stock FWD economy car. My old D Stock CRX Si race car (and Terranova's Civic) displayed the same behavior. Shock tuning may get rid of it (as jmauld said) but I don't want to throw away my transitional handling to solve a small wheelhop problem. Sometimes you have to prioritize

Also, Jas00x, why did you go back to 205's in the front? Just curious I probably won't run Hoosiers at first- I want to get more practice on harder tires initially.

Maybe I will get to race you eventually, but my main activity right now is getting a lot of practice. I've been semiretired from autocrossing for the last 2 years and I'm VERY rusty. Also, I raced Miatas (a 94R and 99 Sport) for several years prior to that, and switching from a small, lightweight RWD car with a Torsen to a tall FWD sedan is a learning process I am finding out that the driving style the Miata liked- throw it into the corner, aim it at the apex and floor it- results in lots of tire scrub and wheelspin/hop when you try it in a Protege

Kevin McCormick

Hi Jason,

Sorry to hear about the diff at the Pro - I'm surprised that it lunched. Of course, I can feel your pain (few missing teeth off the ring gear on the Type-R at the 2000 Pro Finale :-)

I'm also interested in your choice to run 205's on the front. On the Type-R we run 225's on the 15x6 wheels. Now that the 225/45/15 is available in the Kumho, we're trying that.

It is simple too much tire for the HP/weight?

Also glad to see a Protege running - should be a great car on speed maintence courses.

As far as wheel hop, I expect part of this is the weak engine mounts. If only Mazda would do a TSB with a replacement part :-)

Kevin McCormick
'00 ES (Daily Driver)
'97 Type-R (D-Stock)

carguycw

In my local area, some of the guys who have gotten the new 225-width Kumhos (Terranova plus several 99+ Miata owners) have commented that the sidewalls are squishier than the Hoosiers or the old Kumho Victoracers, and they require a lot more tire pressure. So far, the jury is still out on whether they are too squishy for use on stock cars with limited negative camber (i.e. 99+ Protege). I'm curious how they're working on your camber-handicapped Type R.

However, like I said, I will probably get some 205/50 Victoracers first because they last longer.

Jas00x

Well, I just got the Protege back today- a little late for the Tour race (I drove Rick Cone's Celica GT in GS).

The tranny feels nice and tight now. I think I'll be able to test it out as soon as I can. I am SOOO FRUSTRATED about missing the 2 national races. I was like that guy in the NASCAR races that crashes out early in the race.
"yeah, jim, I felt like we had a car that could win, it's ashame this had to happen. I just feel bad for the crew that has to put the car back together" I can't wait to get my car back on course.

To answer the question about tire choice- well I happend to come upon 6 205-50-15 Hoosiers (partially used) for $250. I couldn't pass it up. I was hoping to win some tires at the national events, (then I would get the 225's), but that didn't work out as planned....

But honestly, I have driven on both the 205's (Peru pro) and 225's (Peru Tour) and haven't noticed too much difference between the two.
Hoosiers are very dependent on thier lifespan as to how grippy they are. So it's hard to tell which is better unless you directly compare brand new tires- and I haven't had that luxury yet. Basically, 205's are *cheaper* to run, because you can run them on all 4 corners- the 225's don't really fit on the rear.

Later,

carguycw

I seriously doubt that. The 99+ Protege is a pretty fair match for many other HS cars since the SCAC cleaned out the bottom of ES and put some pretty quick cars into HS (85 CRX Si, del Sol VTEC, Nissan 240SX and 200SX SE-R, to name a few). I think the Pro is going to be fighting an uphill battle

Actually, since I probably won't be able to autocross the car enough to get truly competitive anyways, my other idea is to install some springs and an AWR rear bar and go play in STS. It would make the car a lot more fun on the street, which is where I do most of my driving

Jas00x

The thing about H-Stock cars, is that they are all so different that is hard to look at the list and say "this car is the one". The 2nd Gen civics are popular for HS because 1. They are soooo cheap, and 2. There are tons of parts available for them, and 3. They are fun cars to drive.
A lot of cars in H-Stock could be great racecars, it just takes someone willing enough bring them out, and develop parts that work for the car and the driver.
No one's going to win a championship in a car that hasn't had some serious shock tuning, tire testing, and brakework.
I'm sticking to my HS Protege for this year and probably next year- There's lots of talk about the new MINI being the HS car this year, but 1. the car's not even out yet, and 2. How many people will have the set-up nailed by September?
I'll admit, the Protege is starting from behind compared to the Civic's and BMW's, but I guess I like a good challenge.
Bring 'em on!!! We need more H-Stock racers.

carguycw

Yeah, but a lot of that has to do with the "herd" mentality of many autocrossers- most of them want to drive a car that is a PROVEN winner. Some of the cars that I listed had some serious potential to win in the old ES (I'm mainly thinking of the del Sol VTEC and 200SX SE-R here) but nobody ever ran them because they didn't want to be the first. If someone decides to invest the time and effort, they could be winners.

FWIW,

jmauld

Back to the wheelhop thing. I got wheelhop this morning on the way to work, and it honestly feels like the combination of stiff tires (and somewhat stiff springs) and soft shocks are the main cause of it.

This car really wheelhops bad, which is just not an acceptable thing for transmission life.

Jason are your shocks adjustable? If so, can you do a little experiment for me?

jmauld

I see it as the struts not being able to control the springs bouncing while under load. I found this from a dictionary of car terms. Honestly, I haven't really considered how the struts would react if they were too stiff. On the rear of the mirage, my struts were too stiff, and it caused the inside tire to bounce on and off the ground while in a sweeper, but that's not the same thing as wheel hop while accelerating.

"Wheel hop - An undesirable suspension characteristic in which a wheel (or several) moves up and down so violently that it actually leaves the ground. Wheel hop can be caused by many problems, including excessive unsprung weight, insufficient shock damping, or poor torsional axle control. "