THOSE WITH COMPONENTS: tweeter mounting options?
June-10th-2002, 09:51 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: IA
Posts: 250
THOSE WITH COMPONENTS: tweeter mounting options?
ok....... i am thinking of getting components for the front. where are you guys with comp sets mounting the tweets? sail panels, flush on the door, other spots? the sails seam to be the easiest route but does this really wreck your stereo imaging being far from the midrange speaker? thanks and post any pics if you've got em'!!!
June-11th-2002, 01:50 AM
#3
Juggalo
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 763
No no no, you will ruin your sound imaging if you don't place them close to your mid-woofers. If you don't have an ear for it, and really don't care than its not a big deal. Someone who is not an enthusiast will never notice the difference with the tweets mounted away from the mids. I simply drilled holes in my door panels to mount my MB Quart tweets. There just is too much frequency seperation for me when the tweets are spaced far from the mids. I learned that lesson the hard way on my first stereo install I did. I had an eclipse and I mounted my tweeters way the **** away from the mids, and it sounded like **** in my opinion, way too tinny, and crashy, the tweets didn't compliment the image, they just sounded like their own entity, while the mids sounded clouded without the highs of the tweets to bring them together. Now this could be the fact that I've been messin with stereos for about 7 years, or the fact I've smoked way too much weed, and hear weird things. Anyway here's a pic of my rear door, my fronts are mounted in a similar way.
June-11th-2002, 10:18 PM
#4
...and loving it!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Texas, US
Posts: 286
There are pros and cons of each.
Mounting in the sailplane has the positive aspec that it "raises" the soundstage to have a sound source higher up in the car. This is especially welcome in the P5 since the speakers are mounted so low in both doors. It's also really easy to mount the tweeters on the sailplanes, and I think it looks better, too.
However, because the distance to your ear relative to the mids will be a little off, the imaging can be, too, because the signal from the (closer) tweeters will get to your ears first. Assuming that you're the driver, the speakers are far enough away from you on the passenger side that it won't make much difference there, but it will on the driver's side. My impression of the effect is that it makes things sound brighter, as if the treble gain was turned up, but only on the left side. I don't think it's quite the melodrama described; it won't "ruin" the sound. But it does have an effect, and it's not an entirely positive one. Is it worth the price to raise the soundstage? Depends on your tastes.
What someone recommended to me, and I did, was before deciding on a final location, listen to both. That is, before you drill anywhere, use duct tape or something to mount the tweets in one spot, listen, then the other, and listen again. If you can't tell the difference (or don't have a preference), then don't worry about it. If you can and you have a preference, then now you know where to mount. This isn't quite foolproof because having the doors panels on changes the transfer function a little, but it's probably close enough.
Mounting in the sailplane has the positive aspec that it "raises" the soundstage to have a sound source higher up in the car. This is especially welcome in the P5 since the speakers are mounted so low in both doors. It's also really easy to mount the tweeters on the sailplanes, and I think it looks better, too.
However, because the distance to your ear relative to the mids will be a little off, the imaging can be, too, because the signal from the (closer) tweeters will get to your ears first. Assuming that you're the driver, the speakers are far enough away from you on the passenger side that it won't make much difference there, but it will on the driver's side. My impression of the effect is that it makes things sound brighter, as if the treble gain was turned up, but only on the left side. I don't think it's quite the melodrama described; it won't "ruin" the sound. But it does have an effect, and it's not an entirely positive one. Is it worth the price to raise the soundstage? Depends on your tastes.
What someone recommended to me, and I did, was before deciding on a final location, listen to both. That is, before you drill anywhere, use duct tape or something to mount the tweets in one spot, listen, then the other, and listen again. If you can't tell the difference (or don't have a preference), then don't worry about it. If you can and you have a preference, then now you know where to mount. This isn't quite foolproof because having the doors panels on changes the transfer function a little, but it's probably close enough.
June-11th-2002, 11:59 PM
#5
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: canada
Posts: 75
I prefer on the sails. I have wicked imaging and there is a trick to keeping the tweeters from sounding too bright and harsh (other than having a good set of course), wire them out of phase with the woofer.
View the full install here
View the full install here
June-12th-2002, 05:44 AM
#6
**Punani Lover**
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hawaii (duh!)
Posts: 1,861
for those of you who haven't seen bigwoofer's install, you need to do so right now! it is bad@ss!!! 
but honestly, if you want sweeeeet sound, imo it's best to make kick panels. if you go to a sound shop, you'll notice how nice the spkrs sound, cause they are facing you! stock spkr location is really not great for imaging, and i'm not sure who the idiot was who decided to mount them that way (i actually did know at one time but forgot), but it is a really sucky location. and sweeden is right, the farther away your tweets, you may lose imaging. altho i've mounted mine in the sails they are only temporary until i put my focal utopia's in kick-panels on the floor. if you want that sound-shop or concert-like sound, you gotta try to re-produce it, facing you as much as possible. but in the sails should be alright if you don't wanna do custom work.
but honestly, if you want sweeeeet sound, imo it's best to make kick panels. if you go to a sound shop, you'll notice how nice the spkrs sound, cause they are facing you! stock spkr location is really not great for imaging, and i'm not sure who the idiot was who decided to mount them that way (i actually did know at one time but forgot), but it is a really sucky location. and sweeden is right, the farther away your tweets, you may lose imaging. altho i've mounted mine in the sails they are only temporary until i put my focal utopia's in kick-panels on the floor. if you want that sound-shop or concert-like sound, you gotta try to re-produce it, facing you as much as possible. but in the sails should be alright if you don't wanna do custom work.
Last edited by onehawaiian; June-12th-2002 at 05:51 AM.
June-12th-2002, 07:14 AM
#7
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: IA
Posts: 250
onehawaiin..... how much do you think custom kick panels would cost? just curious. i guess i am not crazy about the idea of cutting my door panel to make for a flush mounted tweet near the woofer. but i do want the best sound i can get. maybe i can have a shop do the install wich i was planning on anyways. but i probably would'nt be able to spend time to hear the differences in mounting options. hmmmmm..... i'm torn.
how do you wire your tweets out of phase? is this reccomended for a sail panel install or what?
how do you wire your tweets out of phase? is this reccomended for a sail panel install or what?
June-12th-2002, 07:45 AM
#8
**Punani Lover**
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hawaii (duh!)
Posts: 1,861
ooh, i wouldn't even know how much the kicks would be, but i do know that you shouldn't do them until you have the spkrs you want and are sure you'll keep them. kicks are more or less a permanent thing so-to-speak, as you don't wanna waste money building them only to change it later for better spkrs. do some pricing at different shops and see what kind of work they do. if you haven't done any of this yourself but was thinking about a diy install, i'd say prcatice first cause i saw a guys "first" diy kicks and it was horrible!
as for the out of phase thing, some ppl like the tweeters harsh (metal dome) so you'll have to test those yourself to see if you like it crispy or not. as bigwoofer pointed out, good spkrs will allow you to achieve this w/o re-wiring (backwards) so this may be an option as high-end spkrs can always be found at decent, below retail prices.
on the custom note, my friend mounted his a/d/s tweets flush in the door (almost like sweeden's, but a little higher). for side-mounts, you'd want the sound as close ear-level as possible (like headphones), but again, anytime you cut or do a custom install, you need to be sure you'll be keeping those mids for awhile.
damn, this was a long reply.
i don't even know if i helped any... 
as for the out of phase thing, some ppl like the tweeters harsh (metal dome) so you'll have to test those yourself to see if you like it crispy or not. as bigwoofer pointed out, good spkrs will allow you to achieve this w/o re-wiring (backwards) so this may be an option as high-end spkrs can always be found at decent, below retail prices.
on the custom note, my friend mounted his a/d/s tweets flush in the door (almost like sweeden's, but a little higher). for side-mounts, you'd want the sound as close ear-level as possible (like headphones), but again, anytime you cut or do a custom install, you need to be sure you'll be keeping those mids for awhile.
damn, this was a long reply.
i don't even know if i helped any...
June-12th-2002, 07:55 AM
#9
**Punani Lover**
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hawaii (duh!)
Posts: 1,861
sorry for a second post/reply, but i wanted to add that imaging is reflective on what you listen to as well. if you only like the boom, then your primary objective would be to get those highs tight. but for more sq and audiophile characteristics, tweeter/spkr location is important.
but to make it simple, you can do a temp install like i did, in those lil triangles in the corner. it will sound okay (and actually pretty good) until you decide for either a custom door job or kicks.
car audio is an addiction and you can go broke adding sounds to your ride so plan carefully!
but to make it simple, you can do a temp install like i did, in those lil triangles in the corner. it will sound okay (and actually pretty good) until you decide for either a custom door job or kicks.
car audio is an addiction and you can go broke adding sounds to your ride so plan carefully!
June-12th-2002, 08:19 AM
#10
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: IA
Posts: 250
i agree on the car audio addiction. i already upgraded my speakers and basically wasted my $$ cuz' now i want a better sound.
i'd have to say that SQ is quite important to me and i listen to many types of music. also... i have heard stereo systems with this setup(tweeter mounted high) and have to say that i did like the sound but did'nt really examine the sound or imaging either.
BTW ..... i am thinking of the DEI studio comps up front per darryl's reccomendation and i have also read quite a bit of good things about these speakers. i guess coaxils with a swivel mounted tweet is an option too but then you don't really utilize the crossover FQ potential in the mids and highs.
thanks for your guys' input!
i'd have to say that SQ is quite important to me and i listen to many types of music. also... i have heard stereo systems with this setup(tweeter mounted high) and have to say that i did like the sound but did'nt really examine the sound or imaging either.
BTW ..... i am thinking of the DEI studio comps up front per darryl's reccomendation and i have also read quite a bit of good things about these speakers. i guess coaxils with a swivel mounted tweet is an option too but then you don't really utilize the crossover FQ potential in the mids and highs.
thanks for your guys' input!
June-12th-2002, 02:45 PM
#11
**Punani Lover**
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hawaii (duh!)
Posts: 1,861
if you are considering dei, you're in for a treat! they make really good stuff and darryl will probably hook you up. i was actually thinking about a dei system, but retail was killer. the shop guys were cool and all, but damn, they wouldn't budge on the price. 
you should be fine with mounting the tweets in the sails. and later, if you really want cleaner sound, pick up an eq as well.
you should be fine with mounting the tweets in the sails. and later, if you really want cleaner sound, pick up an eq as well.
June-12th-2002, 04:22 PM
#12
Protege Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oklahoma City OK- where it is flat
Posts: 487
Here would be my few cents-
The assertion to keep tweeters and mids close together is right on! Seperating the compenents will result in hysteresis- a dis jointing of the sound. It can really trash the sound of a good set of speakers.
Speaker placement, positioning so the distance from the speaker to the ear is as close to the same as possible from each speaker is critical. Dashs are the worst offender, then doors. The closest placements you will find are the kick panels. BUT- you can wipe out some foot space fast this way, so be prepared! You can loose the dead spot for your left foot fast. While I have nevered minded this, you can end up worrying about what a passenger will do to the cones with their feet.
Lows frequencies are omnidirectional, and if the speakers are done well on the install and toneally, the sound will not come from a distinct spot. High frequencies are very directional, in the sense that distinct left and right come in highs. The distance to the ears is critical in that sense of seperation. Line of site is not as vital, and frequencies do bounce around a bit.
I won't speak directly to out of phase wiring per se'. It is the magic behind the distinct left and right channel sound of Bose 901 speakers, one driver in each speaker is out of phase. The question becomes one of this the imaging that this provides correct or not. If you listen to a set of 901 speakers and then a set of Montana speakers, or any reference system, you will find that the placement and locations of sounds vary between the two. The psychoacoustical effect of soundstage is pretty interesting stuff, and I would imagine in the end only the musician and the recording engineering could tell you where sounds are supposed to be in the soundstage. I can tell you that in car SQ judging, have had it happen to me, and these days doing it to others, you look for the soundstage very closely from car to car. Sounds are expected to image from the same place in each car, with the width, level, depth varying dependent upon the install. Tonally all will be different, but with the same source, the placements should be similar.
Outboard crossovers will normally provide more flexability in adjusting the sound of the tweeters due to having some adjustments in the slopes used.
As a interesting aside, Boston right now is selling additional tweeters for thier product lines that are to assist in ambience, I have a set but have yet to install.
Overall, seperates are a fine SQ investment. As has been mentioned, either mount the mids and adjust the tweeters, or adjust both the mid and the tweeters before you drill them into the car.
Don't worry about how to do kicks, unless you have done them before, get a good local shop to do them for you, and watch and learn. It is not really hard, but thier are a few tricks of the trade that you just won't have in doing hit and miss.
I would same the same about any fears of installing tweeters in the doors or the sail planes. While not hard, someone who has done it before will do it well for you, and it will last the life the the car with you, and improve resale.
Last thing, decide is the car a user, or a SQ competition car. Cars that compete can be used as daily drivers, but are more like race horses than draft horses....
Overall,
The assertion to keep tweeters and mids close together is right on! Seperating the compenents will result in hysteresis- a dis jointing of the sound. It can really trash the sound of a good set of speakers.
Speaker placement, positioning so the distance from the speaker to the ear is as close to the same as possible from each speaker is critical. Dashs are the worst offender, then doors. The closest placements you will find are the kick panels. BUT- you can wipe out some foot space fast this way, so be prepared! You can loose the dead spot for your left foot fast. While I have nevered minded this, you can end up worrying about what a passenger will do to the cones with their feet.
Lows frequencies are omnidirectional, and if the speakers are done well on the install and toneally, the sound will not come from a distinct spot. High frequencies are very directional, in the sense that distinct left and right come in highs. The distance to the ears is critical in that sense of seperation. Line of site is not as vital, and frequencies do bounce around a bit.
I won't speak directly to out of phase wiring per se'. It is the magic behind the distinct left and right channel sound of Bose 901 speakers, one driver in each speaker is out of phase. The question becomes one of this the imaging that this provides correct or not. If you listen to a set of 901 speakers and then a set of Montana speakers, or any reference system, you will find that the placement and locations of sounds vary between the two. The psychoacoustical effect of soundstage is pretty interesting stuff, and I would imagine in the end only the musician and the recording engineering could tell you where sounds are supposed to be in the soundstage. I can tell you that in car SQ judging, have had it happen to me, and these days doing it to others, you look for the soundstage very closely from car to car. Sounds are expected to image from the same place in each car, with the width, level, depth varying dependent upon the install. Tonally all will be different, but with the same source, the placements should be similar.
Outboard crossovers will normally provide more flexability in adjusting the sound of the tweeters due to having some adjustments in the slopes used.
As a interesting aside, Boston right now is selling additional tweeters for thier product lines that are to assist in ambience, I have a set but have yet to install.
Overall, seperates are a fine SQ investment. As has been mentioned, either mount the mids and adjust the tweeters, or adjust both the mid and the tweeters before you drill them into the car.
Don't worry about how to do kicks, unless you have done them before, get a good local shop to do them for you, and watch and learn. It is not really hard, but thier are a few tricks of the trade that you just won't have in doing hit and miss.
I would same the same about any fears of installing tweeters in the doors or the sail planes. While not hard, someone who has done it before will do it well for you, and it will last the life the the car with you, and improve resale.
Last thing, decide is the car a user, or a SQ competition car. Cars that compete can be used as daily drivers, but are more like race horses than draft horses....
Overall,
June-12th-2002, 06:06 PM
#14
Protege Newbie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 6
Hi All,
I installed 6.5 Infinity Coax's in the stock location up front, and put the tweeters from my Infinity separates in the sail, the mid in the stock back location. Its still early days as I am powering them of the amp from the headunit(HU), but I can control the sail presence using the fader on the HU. If I had to do it again I would buy 4 6.5 coaxs and 1 set of addon tweets.
Anywho, works ok, sounds ok. Still looking for a good (cheap) sub.
Still haven't finished putting on the BrownBread deadener.
Just another way to go.
I installed 6.5 Infinity Coax's in the stock location up front, and put the tweeters from my Infinity separates in the sail, the mid in the stock back location. Its still early days as I am powering them of the amp from the headunit(HU), but I can control the sail presence using the fader on the HU. If I had to do it again I would buy 4 6.5 coaxs and 1 set of addon tweets.
Anywho, works ok, sounds ok. Still looking for a good (cheap) sub.
Still haven't finished putting on the BrownBread deadener.
Just another way to go.
June-12th-2002, 11:43 PM
#15
Show Layne some respect
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Long Island,NY
Posts: 2,458
Basically, most component speaker manufacturers suggest one of two mounting options:
1. Put the tweeter no more than 3" from the the woofer - this helps to keep the "point-source" sound - as in, all the sound coming from one general area. This keeps the sound "together", so the high portion of your music is not separated from the mid and low frequencies.
2. Put the tweeter MORE than 7" from the woofer - can help to "raise" the soundstage.
Most say not to put the tweeter inside the 3" to 7" range, because of the possibility of frequency interference and blah, blah, blah.
Whatever, man. I had my first pair of tweets in the sail panels - it was okay, but I kind of wound up "looking" at the tweeter - the sound was so "in your face", and I didn't like the separation, although they look very cool there.
Once I got my Infinity's, I put the tweets near the door speakers. I like this setup much better. The soundstage and imaging in the P5 is pretty awful anyway - the door speakers are so low (the ONE thing I like about the Focus (one and only) - the door speaker placement is absolutely awesome - go to Ford's website and look at an interior view of the Focus, you'll agree). I prefer the sound now - not a separated - the Infinity's can be aimed, so they work out very nice:
And I even found room to mount the crossovers inside the doors:
Simple drill with a hole saw - no sweat to install those. Do whatever you like - experimenting first is a great idea though.
BTW - I am still considering a 3-way setup - I think there's just enough room above that tweeter for a nice shallow 3.5" or 4" midrange. Bwahahahahaha. We'll see........
1. Put the tweeter no more than 3" from the the woofer - this helps to keep the "point-source" sound - as in, all the sound coming from one general area. This keeps the sound "together", so the high portion of your music is not separated from the mid and low frequencies.
2. Put the tweeter MORE than 7" from the woofer - can help to "raise" the soundstage.
Most say not to put the tweeter inside the 3" to 7" range, because of the possibility of frequency interference and blah, blah, blah.
Whatever, man. I had my first pair of tweets in the sail panels - it was okay, but I kind of wound up "looking" at the tweeter - the sound was so "in your face", and I didn't like the separation, although they look very cool there.
Once I got my Infinity's, I put the tweets near the door speakers. I like this setup much better. The soundstage and imaging in the P5 is pretty awful anyway - the door speakers are so low (the ONE thing I like about the Focus (one and only) - the door speaker placement is absolutely awesome - go to Ford's website and look at an interior view of the Focus, you'll agree). I prefer the sound now - not a separated - the Infinity's can be aimed, so they work out very nice:
And I even found room to mount the crossovers inside the doors:
Simple drill with a hole saw - no sweat to install those. Do whatever you like - experimenting first is a great idea though.
BTW - I am still considering a 3-way setup - I think there's just enough room above that tweeter for a nice shallow 3.5" or 4" midrange. Bwahahahahaha. We'll see........
Last edited by hihoslva; June-12th-2002 at 11:51 PM.