2.0L Supercharger
June-8th-2004, 05:55 PM
#91
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
Forged internals is ALWAYS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED with any FI set-up...hell even on stock motors that turn higher rpms.
Basically, I'm not tuning this based on psi or power. I'm going to be looking at the cfm of the blower and I'm going to work with "the manufacturer" to determine how much cfm of air this motor will support with this given fuel pressure. I'm not really worried about detonation causing engine failure. I'm not worried about a drop in fuel pressure causing engine failure. I'm worried aboutt he tensile strength of the stock con-rods. I'm going to match the cfm rate that we decide on on to the blowers rpms and then choose a pulley designed to work with the stock crank pulley (sorry, no aftermarket UDP's allowed) to achieve the desired cfm rate. It matters not to me what the boost is. It could be 3 psi it could 24psi. I'm assuming judging by similar models that our stock engine could run 7-8psi intercooled psi safely and daily. I think 10psi would be fine for track days and 96+octane. Anyone with forged internals is going to be able to make the transmission explode before the motor. I figure on stock internals, running the FMU with the intercooled blower you should see between 170-180hp at the WHEELS. torque should be a little higher. These are peak numbers BUT the overall power curve will be larger by a yet undetermined percentage....typically 55-75% which puts my power estimate dead on. Also, modifications like a header, exhaust and cams will be greatly magnified by something like this. A supercharger is a positive displacement air pump and adds to the overall "size" of the motor. You will feel the boost but not like a turbo. The supercharger will feel like a strong V6 under the hood while a turbo will feel like a 4pot until it spools up and then comes on like a freight train.
I HIGHLY doubt anyone in the protege community will be able to run this blower at anywhere near it's limits! I don't think the chasis will hold it!! However, I make you this promise. Should I sell enough of these kits to make a steady profit I will absolutley build the block and tranny and look into serious competition. I've always been a racer and while the blown cars look great at shows I belong on the track and a creation like this deserves to be wrung out! I look forward to the oppurtunity to do it.
Basically, I'm not tuning this based on psi or power. I'm going to be looking at the cfm of the blower and I'm going to work with "the manufacturer" to determine how much cfm of air this motor will support with this given fuel pressure. I'm not really worried about detonation causing engine failure. I'm not worried about a drop in fuel pressure causing engine failure. I'm worried aboutt he tensile strength of the stock con-rods. I'm going to match the cfm rate that we decide on on to the blowers rpms and then choose a pulley designed to work with the stock crank pulley (sorry, no aftermarket UDP's allowed) to achieve the desired cfm rate. It matters not to me what the boost is. It could be 3 psi it could 24psi. I'm assuming judging by similar models that our stock engine could run 7-8psi intercooled psi safely and daily. I think 10psi would be fine for track days and 96+octane. Anyone with forged internals is going to be able to make the transmission explode before the motor. I figure on stock internals, running the FMU with the intercooled blower you should see between 170-180hp at the WHEELS. torque should be a little higher. These are peak numbers BUT the overall power curve will be larger by a yet undetermined percentage....typically 55-75% which puts my power estimate dead on. Also, modifications like a header, exhaust and cams will be greatly magnified by something like this. A supercharger is a positive displacement air pump and adds to the overall "size" of the motor. You will feel the boost but not like a turbo. The supercharger will feel like a strong V6 under the hood while a turbo will feel like a 4pot until it spools up and then comes on like a freight train.
I HIGHLY doubt anyone in the protege community will be able to run this blower at anywhere near it's limits! I don't think the chasis will hold it!! However, I make you this promise. Should I sell enough of these kits to make a steady profit I will absolutley build the block and tranny and look into serious competition. I've always been a racer and while the blown cars look great at shows I belong on the track and a creation like this deserves to be wrung out! I look forward to the oppurtunity to do it.
June-8th-2004, 08:04 PM
#92
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 381
Originally posted by Roddimus Prime
A supercharger is a positive displacement air pump. . .
A supercharger is a positive displacement air pump. . .
June-8th-2004, 10:04 PM
#93
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
oops, you are correct!
June-12th-2004, 12:15 PM
#94
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
bump for more exposure.
June-13th-2004, 02:17 AM
#95
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 113
im just gonna throw this out there...i saw that they have a supercharger for the 99-04 miatas from jackson racing... is there anyway u maybe able to get some ideas from there design since it being a mazda?
June-13th-2004, 05:03 AM
#96
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
The JR sc's are eaton M45 blowers mounted directly on a custom lower intake manifold. There is no intercooling and if you pay extra you can have "water mist injection" as your only cooling method.
From previous experience and testing on the protege the Eaton blowers are not ideal nor efficient enough to be considered for this application. Twin screw blowers just turn out too much heat and are too large and bulky to mount anywhere.
From previous experience and testing on the protege the Eaton blowers are not ideal nor efficient enough to be considered for this application. Twin screw blowers just turn out too much heat and are too large and bulky to mount anywhere.
June-27th-2004, 10:13 PM
#97
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 113
any update on the supercharger??? im def interested
June-27th-2004, 10:18 PM
#98
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
Yeah, it's sunday night now and I'm hoping to speak with the manufacturer either monday or tuesday and see about getting my core to complete the mockup.
If all goes smoothly I'll have it up and running in time for NOPI in Atlanta for all of the S.E. guys who are interested in seeing it up and running. Also, I may be able to get it on NOPI's dyno....should be interesteing to see.
I really hope this manufacturer see's the light and decides to provide me with this stuff. It only stands to benefit them to have this ready to go at the biggest import event of the year.
We'll see and I'll keep everyone updated.
If all goes smoothly I'll have it up and running in time for NOPI in Atlanta for all of the S.E. guys who are interested in seeing it up and running. Also, I may be able to get it on NOPI's dyno....should be interesteing to see.
I really hope this manufacturer see's the light and decides to provide me with this stuff. It only stands to benefit them to have this ready to go at the biggest import event of the year.
We'll see and I'll keep everyone updated.
July-4th-2004, 03:32 PM
#100
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
Yes, but it wasn't positive. I basically went to the manufacturer and laid out a proposal in extensive detail to design a superhcer kit for the protege based on their blower, their fmu, their intercooler, etc.... All I was asking for was a universal kit that I could modify and tune in time for NOPI in atlanta. They would be able to add whatever decals they wanted to my vehicle, I would wear their shirt, basically just promote their entiere company at the largest Import car show in the US.
The guy laughed in my face. He told me that a mazda protege wasn't a popular car and no'one would buy one for it. He also told me that he received 50 calls a day from people wanting free or discounted stuff and that he is not in the market to give stuff away. I then asked for manufacturer pricing on a universal kit so I could purchase it myself. He told me that was out of the question as well but he would sell me just the head unit for $2400. When I explained that he was forcing me to price this out of anyone's buying range he told me that their 350Z kit retails for $6K and they can't keep them on the shelves. I tried explaining that the 350Z buyer may be a little more financially independent than the Protege buyer.
Needless to say I will not be given a dev kit to design this. This means I have to come up with $2800 out of my pocket as this is my actual cost for everything. I will not be showing this off at NOPI like I had hoped unless someone makes a generous donation or decides they want this kit sight unseen and puts a deposit down on it so I can get started. This would be ideal.
While I believe ATI makes the best supercharger for this application. I'm not happy to be buying their products. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride to get ther job done though.
The guy laughed in my face. He told me that a mazda protege wasn't a popular car and no'one would buy one for it. He also told me that he received 50 calls a day from people wanting free or discounted stuff and that he is not in the market to give stuff away. I then asked for manufacturer pricing on a universal kit so I could purchase it myself. He told me that was out of the question as well but he would sell me just the head unit for $2400. When I explained that he was forcing me to price this out of anyone's buying range he told me that their 350Z kit retails for $6K and they can't keep them on the shelves. I tried explaining that the 350Z buyer may be a little more financially independent than the Protege buyer.
Needless to say I will not be given a dev kit to design this. This means I have to come up with $2800 out of my pocket as this is my actual cost for everything. I will not be showing this off at NOPI like I had hoped unless someone makes a generous donation or decides they want this kit sight unseen and puts a deposit down on it so I can get started. This would be ideal.
While I believe ATI makes the best supercharger for this application. I'm not happy to be buying their products. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride to get ther job done though.
July-12th-2004, 10:32 AM
#101
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Posts: 809
anywho, i have an auto 03 ES sedan. bone stock. i guess i'll have to catch up on the thread a little to see what's going on but i might be interested in having my car as the test mule if i can work things out
July-12th-2004, 11:04 AM
#102
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
very nice. I'm about 800 miles away from you so it may be a heck of a drive. I almost drove it when I went to Wagners so it's not impossible.
An auto ES would be preferable since it would be able to test the auto AND the front grill for the intercooler.
UPDATE
Right now I have been speaking with Powerdyne about their blowers. They are self-contained (important), internally belt-driven (no noise at all!) and require a rebuild every 50K miles for a total of about $200. This is a very nice package. It's a little larger than the Procharger I was planning on using but has all of the same great characteristics.
These superchargers are used on V6 and V8 applications and make 50-75% power increase at only 6psi NON-intercooled. I am planning on running 5psi intercooled for about 180-200whp. This is a substantional increase over stock and absolutely worth the estimated $2500 cost.
An auto ES would be preferable since it would be able to test the auto AND the front grill for the intercooler.
UPDATE
Right now I have been speaking with Powerdyne about their blowers. They are self-contained (important), internally belt-driven (no noise at all!) and require a rebuild every 50K miles for a total of about $200. This is a very nice package. It's a little larger than the Procharger I was planning on using but has all of the same great characteristics.
These superchargers are used on V6 and V8 applications and make 50-75% power increase at only 6psi NON-intercooled. I am planning on running 5psi intercooled for about 180-200whp. This is a substantional increase over stock and absolutely worth the estimated $2500 cost.
July-12th-2004, 11:38 AM
#103
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 36
I am still very interested in doing this, have you made any more developments as to what you plan to keep and toss in the engine bay?
Is removing the AC going to be crucial in the actual fitment, or just for the obvious 40-50lbs of weight ruduction and stress relief?
WB Power steering, I don't totally grasp the "half full" approach you spoke of area 51 trying to impose.
Is removing the AC going to be crucial in the actual fitment, or just for the obvious 40-50lbs of weight ruduction and stress relief?
WB Power steering, I don't totally grasp the "half full" approach you spoke of area 51 trying to impose.
July-12th-2004, 11:54 AM
#104
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
the ac HAS to go to provide the PS pump a place to be relocated to. removing the condensor and evap canister is just pulling dead weight and cleaning up trash under the hood. However, the compressor is the only piece that HAS to go....you could very well keep everything else installed to remove the kit for future sale and just recharge the AC once it's back on the car.
AREA51 had a good idea with the type of blower and where it's mounted. I'm keeping that the same. Their problem was that they removed the PS pump and added a blower so large and bulky it laid into the exhaust manifold. This required them to custom fabricate a horribly flawed header. Also their kit is non-intercooled and required oil cooling which mine does not. They were on the right track but didn't take the time to think it all through I guess. Also, I believe their kit was designed for the show car circuit where mine is designed for the average person to afford and use daily.
half-full?? Im not sure what ou're refering to but I believe you mean about how they removed their PS and just filled the PS lines with fluid that will not circulate or cool off....I'm not sure why they did this. It's a mystery to me and they are out of business now anyway.
AREA51 had a good idea with the type of blower and where it's mounted. I'm keeping that the same. Their problem was that they removed the PS pump and added a blower so large and bulky it laid into the exhaust manifold. This required them to custom fabricate a horribly flawed header. Also their kit is non-intercooled and required oil cooling which mine does not. They were on the right track but didn't take the time to think it all through I guess. Also, I believe their kit was designed for the show car circuit where mine is designed for the average person to afford and use daily.
half-full?? Im not sure what ou're refering to but I believe you mean about how they removed their PS and just filled the PS lines with fluid that will not circulate or cool off....I'm not sure why they did this. It's a mystery to me and they are out of business now anyway.
July-12th-2004, 12:23 PM
#105
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 36
there must be more than one yellow wings west cars. The picture on the wall I have has black painted hood and front mount IC, i've seen other pics with no visible IC and CF hood