So this guy asks me...
October-12th-2005, 07:29 PM
#1
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central Pennyslvania
Posts: 8
So this guy asks me...
My name is Owen, and I am the Secretary for the York Area Mazda Society located in central Pennsylvania. A member of our group recently began playing around with the idea of an FS swap into his 99' Protege 1.6L. The FS swap was my suggestion, because I couldn't forsee more than 162hp from a 1.6L without compromising many aspects of daily comfort.
I have a few questions and I hope that through the assistance of you, the members and moderators, the necessary information can be gathered and discussed.
What are the camshaft specifications for the FSDE, FSZE, Mazdaspeed, and other camshafts that are available? Center Angle, Centerline, Duration, and Lift would be helpful.
Are there any solid lifter conversions available for the FS heads?
What are the valve size specifications for the FSDE, FSZE, and Mazdaspeed heads?
What is the maximum valve face diameter feasible for both intake and exhaust valves?
Are there any internal concerns to be addressed? (tapered oil passages, horrible bearing design, low oil pressure, etc.)
Thank you for your help.
I have a few questions and I hope that through the assistance of you, the members and moderators, the necessary information can be gathered and discussed.
What are the camshaft specifications for the FSDE, FSZE, Mazdaspeed, and other camshafts that are available? Center Angle, Centerline, Duration, and Lift would be helpful.
Are there any solid lifter conversions available for the FS heads?
What are the valve size specifications for the FSDE, FSZE, and Mazdaspeed heads?
What is the maximum valve face diameter feasible for both intake and exhaust valves?
Are there any internal concerns to be addressed? (tapered oil passages, horrible bearing design, low oil pressure, etc.)
Thank you for your help.
Last edited by Big Smoke; October-12th-2005 at 09:19 PM.
October-12th-2005, 07:58 PM
#2
Moderator/ Pocket Tuner
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,150
Lot's of issues to address here
an FS Swap would easily cost as much or more than turbo'ing the 1.6L, which is capable of MUCH more than 162 hp
the 1.6L has MUCH stronger internals than the 2.0L, and would not be "compromised" by hp levels at or exceeding 162hp(where did you get that number???)
ALL Protege's from 1997 on have solid lifters
DO A SEARCH !!! All the other info you need is easily accesible using the search function
BTW....WELCOME !!!!
an FS Swap would easily cost as much or more than turbo'ing the 1.6L, which is capable of MUCH more than 162 hp
the 1.6L has MUCH stronger internals than the 2.0L, and would not be "compromised" by hp levels at or exceeding 162hp(where did you get that number???)
ALL Protege's from 1997 on have solid lifters
DO A SEARCH !!! All the other info you need is easily accesible using the search function
BTW....WELCOME !!!!
October-12th-2005, 08:09 PM
#3
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central Pennyslvania
Posts: 8
I mostly do K-motor stuff, you know those oddball V6's. So I was expecting hydraulic, self adjusting, lifters. I've just been toying around with the 1.6L and 2.0L motors on a program I have and haven't been considering proper induction design, so I realize the numbers may be a bit low.
Last edited by Big Smoke; October-13th-2005 at 04:00 AM.
October-12th-2005, 08:31 PM
#4
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
the cost of doing a FS-DE swap (fs-ze won't work without MAJOR ecu/electrical tweaking) is probably not going to make it effective for you guys.
Big Mike is right. Just buying a simple 1.6L turbo kit will provide 200whp (easily...i've seen upwards of 285whp on stock bottom ends). This doesn't require removal of any key componants or loss of ac/ps systems. Just throw it on one sunday and be done with it.
Juan from Hiboost makes a great 1.6L kit. I think the whole kit is like $3600 and will provide more power than you'd probably ever want while not requiring you to find a motor, tear into it, swap in custom/expensive parts, etc.... just throw it on and go.
Big Mike is right. Just buying a simple 1.6L turbo kit will provide 200whp (easily...i've seen upwards of 285whp on stock bottom ends). This doesn't require removal of any key componants or loss of ac/ps systems. Just throw it on one sunday and be done with it.
Juan from Hiboost makes a great 1.6L kit. I think the whole kit is like $3600 and will provide more power than you'd probably ever want while not requiring you to find a motor, tear into it, swap in custom/expensive parts, etc.... just throw it on and go.
October-12th-2005, 11:10 PM
#6
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I remember sitting with guys who were putting home-brew turbocharging systems on FS Probes years ago, I remember their sub $1,000 final price. I have many more examples of how not to overspend, but I digress.
Searching for camshaft specifications just located topics where members claimed that a cam was "lumpy", "agressive", or "good for 10hp".
A lot of mentions of the short lifespan of the Sunbelt racing motors, but no explanations as to why... oh wait, race preped engine.
That brings up a small issue, I was told that power was in excess of 300hp unrestricted.
Searching for camshaft specifications just located topics where members claimed that a cam was "lumpy", "agressive", or "good for 10hp".
A lot of mentions of the short lifespan of the Sunbelt racing motors, but no explanations as to why... oh wait, race preped engine.
That brings up a small issue, I was told that power was in excess of 300hp unrestricted.
October-12th-2005, 11:52 PM
#7
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
I know the sunbelt engines are used in tripoint cars and make 250-ish whp. They last only a few races and cost a fortune. So is the life of a NA build.
I personally have built my share of FI systems and a sub-$1K turbo kit would NEVER go on one of my cars that I cared about. If you're worried about the cost then an NA swap is NOT the way to go. The FS-DE engines have a LOT of problems with them.
1. WEAK rods....super weak. I farted on a downshift once and bent one.
2. aftermarket rods/pistons cost a fortune. These aren't hondas.
3. the ECU is total junk. Full standalone is the ONLY way to get decent power out of serious NA build. For FI cars it's not as much of an issue.
4. finding aftermarket cams will be impossible as none exsist. You could purchase new billits from mazdaspeed of japan and do all of your math yourself and have them ground but expect to pay about $500 for the cams and labor.
5. Cam gears are VERY expensive. I think they are $350-400. The exhaust gear is the pricey one as the fs-de ecu requires a 3 magnetic pick-up instead of a standard 1 pick-up.
6. the head flows for crap....even ported/polished/honed...it's a bad head. If you were to design an all aluminum DOHC head with oversized valve ports and something similar to a honda K20 or Toyota 1.8L you'd have something on your hands. but again...$$$$$
7. Oil pan design. The oil pan is un-baffled and numerous proteges have met their end taking turns (which is ironically what they do best). The oil sloshes away from the pick up and WHAM, engine gone. I know of several people PERSONALLY that it's happened to.
I personally have built my share of FI systems and a sub-$1K turbo kit would NEVER go on one of my cars that I cared about. If you're worried about the cost then an NA swap is NOT the way to go. The FS-DE engines have a LOT of problems with them.
1. WEAK rods....super weak. I farted on a downshift once and bent one.
2. aftermarket rods/pistons cost a fortune. These aren't hondas.
3. the ECU is total junk. Full standalone is the ONLY way to get decent power out of serious NA build. For FI cars it's not as much of an issue.
4. finding aftermarket cams will be impossible as none exsist. You could purchase new billits from mazdaspeed of japan and do all of your math yourself and have them ground but expect to pay about $500 for the cams and labor.
5. Cam gears are VERY expensive. I think they are $350-400. The exhaust gear is the pricey one as the fs-de ecu requires a 3 magnetic pick-up instead of a standard 1 pick-up.
6. the head flows for crap....even ported/polished/honed...it's a bad head. If you were to design an all aluminum DOHC head with oversized valve ports and something similar to a honda K20 or Toyota 1.8L you'd have something on your hands. but again...$$$$$
7. Oil pan design. The oil pan is un-baffled and numerous proteges have met their end taking turns (which is ironically what they do best). The oil sloshes away from the pick up and WHAM, engine gone. I know of several people PERSONALLY that it's happened to.
October-13th-2005, 12:28 AM
#8
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Thank you. As for low cost turbo kits, I had a line on a 8k mile 16G05H for $325 just a month ago but my customer/friend changed his mind. I've been around some rediculous vehicles that were built for very little.
The owner of the vehicle is considering whatever he can in order to achieve decent power in the range of 100hp/L, so I've already considered some standalone units. The camshaft fabrication will be rediculous, but aside from MS units there is very little available.
I believe in starting from the valvetrain and working my way through a motor. So MS camshaft specifications and valve sizes are important. I suppose I should drive down to Wagner Motorsports tomorrow and see what they know. Already it appears that an engine rebuild with Oliver rods will be costing around $2,000. I'll see if I can enlist the assistance of some local fabricators before finishing the quote.
The owner of the vehicle is considering whatever he can in order to achieve decent power in the range of 100hp/L, so I've already considered some standalone units. The camshaft fabrication will be rediculous, but aside from MS units there is very little available.
I believe in starting from the valvetrain and working my way through a motor. So MS camshaft specifications and valve sizes are important. I suppose I should drive down to Wagner Motorsports tomorrow and see what they know. Already it appears that an engine rebuild with Oliver rods will be costing around $2,000. I'll see if I can enlist the assistance of some local fabricators before finishing the quote.
Last edited by Big Smoke; October-13th-2005 at 12:38 AM.
October-13th-2005, 08:47 AM
#9
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
normally I would recommend wagner for something like this as he makes a 1.6L turbo kit that is very powerful but lately wagner has defrauded people of a lot of money. He took $600 from me and sent me un-useable stuff. When I tell him the problems I have with it I'm promised replacement pieces and then he disappears. When he was confronted on the forum about it he denies ever knowing there were any problems even though I posted his numerous emails where he says he'll send me the right stuff.
Stay away from Wagner. He's been nothing but trouble for numerous people here.
(never thought I'd have to say that after running GB's for him and working with him and sleeping in his house....sad world we live in when friends screw over friends.)
Stay away from Wagner. He's been nothing but trouble for numerous people here.
(never thought I'd have to say that after running GB's for him and working with him and sleeping in his house....sad world we live in when friends screw over friends.)
October-13th-2005, 10:53 AM
#11
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
in the past I'd recommend wagner over anyone else but here lately he's gone downhill in a bad way. All the while I took up for him and stuck my neck out for him. When it came time to find someone to help with my supercharger kits I turned to himn first. Only after he stole my money and lied to me/everyone about it did my opinions change.
There is a huge thread about wagner ripping people off on the other forums. I'd HIGHLY think twice about sending any buisness his way.
<chalking another supposed friend off the list>
There is a huge thread about wagner ripping people off on the other forums. I'd HIGHLY think twice about sending any buisness his way.
<chalking another supposed friend off the list>
October-13th-2005, 11:15 AM
#12
Moderator/ Pocket Tuner
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,150
Originally Posted by Big Smoke
Thank you. As for low cost turbo kits, I had a line on a 8k mile 16G05H for $325 just a month ago but my customer/friend changed his mind. I've been around some rediculous vehicles that were built for very little.
The owner of the vehicle is considering whatever he can in order to achieve decent power in the range of 100hp/L, so I've already considered some standalone units. The camshaft fabrication will be rediculous, but aside from MS units there is very little available.
I believe in starting from the valvetrain and working my way through a motor. So MS camshaft specifications and valve sizes are important. I suppose I should drive down to Wagner Motorsports tomorrow and see what they know. Already it appears that an engine rebuild with Oliver rods will be costing around $2,000. I'll see if I can enlist the assistance of some local fabricators before finishing the quote.
The owner of the vehicle is considering whatever he can in order to achieve decent power in the range of 100hp/L, so I've already considered some standalone units. The camshaft fabrication will be rediculous, but aside from MS units there is very little available.
I believe in starting from the valvetrain and working my way through a motor. So MS camshaft specifications and valve sizes are important. I suppose I should drive down to Wagner Motorsports tomorrow and see what they know. Already it appears that an engine rebuild with Oliver rods will be costing around $2,000. I'll see if I can enlist the assistance of some local fabricators before finishing the quote.
Are you saying he still wants to do the 2.0L swap ??? Or are you planning to turbo the engine???
...with a turbo kit the 1.6L EASILY exceeds 100hp per liter and you can turbo it WITHOUT ANY internal work
October-13th-2005, 11:57 AM
#13
Awesome Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 3,186
This has been great fun reading this so far--everything I've known for a long time but was afraid to admit to myself--in fact, I'd like to propose a swap myself:
Anyone want my FS-DE for a ZM-DE? Matty & Mike have now left me permanently scarred.
Anyone want my FS-DE for a ZM-DE? Matty & Mike have now left me permanently scarred.
October-13th-2005, 12:00 PM
#14
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
no way. just work within the engines limits and you'll be fine (unless your fs-de acts like 50% of them do and breaks for no reason)....hahaha
p.s. if anyone is putting a V6 in a 3rd gen. It's going to be with the SHO engine. I won't let someone else beat me to the punch on that.
p.s. if anyone is putting a V6 in a 3rd gen. It's going to be with the SHO engine. I won't let someone else beat me to the punch on that.
October-13th-2005, 12:36 PM
#15
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 661
It seems like he's not quite undertanding this. If you dont care about the engine and are willing to have it go out on you in a few months, then piece together a sub-$1000 kit from used/scrap parts. Personally, nothing would ever go on my car that I didn't absolutely trust. If you want a good turbo kit that you can get 150 hp/L (pretty easily) on the stock short block and head, go give hiboost a call.