mwarrior

Ok, so heres the situation....
I had my belts replaced a while back, and turned out one was loose and squeeked. Also, sometimes my oil light would turn on until the squeeking would stop (my guess is it was the alternator belt, as the dash would be a lil dim too).
ANyways, so a few days ago that belt was tightened, still squeaks a little bit, but now theres a LOUD engine knocking at about 1500+rpm if I'm revving it in park/neutral, or at about 3000rpm if I'm driving (and also when the car's shifting).

It doesnt look like theres any oil in the coolant. I've checked the oil, the "level" shows to the bottom of the stick, so I added more oil but it doesnt seem to register on the dipstick. I'm going to drain it tomorrow and see how much comes out, but any ideas on what could cause this, and what would be required to fix it?

Issue 1: Engine Knocking
Issue 2: Oil not showing up on the dipstick

Da P-Funk!

uh, dude, you ran it dry on oil and i suspect you have induced a rod bearing failure. (badbadbad)

Take it to a trusted mechanic for further troubleshooting. Bring money. Lots.
(sorry)

mwarrior

Great, I had a reply typed up and hit "Post" but it got delete, go figure.

Anyways, as for oil, I checked it last week and it was fine, and I didnt see even a drop underneath the car (I can notice this stuff in my driveway usually, and especially when it snows), and the cooling system doesnt seem to have any oil mixed either. So what could cause the oil to disappear? Also, one thing my friend suggested was maybe its 'stuck' in the upper part of the block and not going into the pan? That make sense?

Lastly, does anybody know the procedure for something like this in both the US and Canada? Reason being I had a spark plug shoot out of the head on another car I have, and I happened to be in MI driving through at the time. The dealer there replaced the head. WHen I asked an Ontario dealer what the procedure is, they said "Well we'd hypercoil it, then replace the spark plug".
When I went to MI to pick the car up, and mentioned that, they said "Hypercoil? Never, that just causes more problems down the road" (And the ontario dealer wanted the same price that the MI dealer charged).

I'd rather not have any problems 'down the road' or anything, so if I have to tow it into NY State or Ohio, thats not much of an issue as I know some tow truck drivers and my Auto Club will take care of hte mileage no problem.

Thanks

Da P-Funk!

Here one day and gone the next - indicates a major leak - like a oil sensor failure. rear seal blow out, etc. You should see UH LOT of oil under the car.

Helicoil is a good fix for the (my broke-@ss / no warrenty) money. If the car was under warrenty and the dealership did the tune up - i would DEMAND a new head.

I would recommend gettting a used motor - check the boards here or check with Protege Garage (Ken).

Ship to a local/reputable shop for replacement. Budget about a week total.

dentinger

your car might also just be burning the oil....ALOT of oil....

i think you have 2 solutions here....
1)fill the engine FULL of oil and sell it immediately (or trade it in)
2)have someone steal the car for you and push it off a cliff so that you can claim insurance money...

sure, both routes are somewhat illegal, especially the second one.....but whatever, nothings illegal as long as you dont get caught

mwarrior

Arg. I knew I forgot something. The engine IS still under extended warranty, I'm just wondering where it is better to take it that they wont give too much of a headache. The oil in there seems to be a lil dirty (what oil isnt after 3000-4000miles, even if it IS synthetic), and the main fact is that its not registering anything above "low" on the dipstick.

Would it be better to drain it to see how much comes out, and replace the oil, or does it make sense to try explaining to them that there WAS oil in it, and I have no idea how it disappeared?? I've seen dealers where explaining just goes in one ear comes out the other (ie. one that told me my EGR "wont be covered because the last time we saw the car was at 8,000km and it has 50,000km now", even though the oil wasnt even an issue). Other dealers however (the one I took it to when that dealer started trying to cause problems) are just fine.

Should I drain it to see how much comes out?
P-Funk: I havent seen any oil underneath the car, and as I said thats something I wouldve 100% noticed as its only parked in the driveway, my friend's shop, or places that I can see underneath as I'm leaving (and I dont like parking above oil spills so I wouldve noticed if I'm backing up and theres oil).

dentinger: While the suggestions are good (the first one would be ok for "as is", but I'd rather just have Mazda pay to fix it, especially with the amount of care I've put into this car... I expected my mustang's motor to pop first, not this. That one gets run. Hard.

Soo.... anybody have a dealer or know a mechanic at a dealer anywhere in the GTA or WNY area? PM me with a name its easier :P

Da P-Funk!

Me? Fill it with oil (and uhm, don't mention the low oil level to the dealership!) and just tell them it is now knocking.... and look puzzled/distraught... Be firm but polite. Insist they check for any damage thoroughly. And 'no - it is NOT supposed to be doing this!' Have the reciepts for oil changes handy - if they ask.

Let us know the outcome.

(Count the quarts until full - then you will now how many quarts low you were - you don't have to drain it)

The car holds 3.6 QTs (IIRC).

(I put four quarts in and use the V6 filter (which holds more)).

mwarrior

I assumed the "dont mention level" thing But what if it gets there, dipstick shwos normal, but theres oil stuck somewhere in the engine? As for receipts... I do have receipts from when I purchased the oil, but did the oil changes myself or had people I know that work at garages to them for me (in other words free).

As for your previous comment about warranty and dealership doing tuneup, was that a "if AND" or just "either or" kinda thing? Because it is under warranty, but the dealership has done maybe 2 tuneups over the time I've had it, the rest have been done by me or mechanic friends or lube shop friends.

EDIT: Anybody have experience on this at a dealer under warranty in Ontario and in the US? Trying to figure out what the Ontario dealers do vs what the US dealers do, as I want whats best for t he engine in the long run.

Olestra

Doing the oil changes yourself is a problem (unless you're certified). I think it states in your warranty somewhere that as long as a certified mechanic does the oil changes, the car remains under warranty. So you don't have to go to the stealership to get tune-ups/oil changes. You can go to any shop with a certified mechanic as long as you have your receipts showing they serviced it at the correct mileage. No receipts means a hard time with warranty coverage because as far as they are concerned, you could have only changed the oil twice since 8k kms (not saying that's the case, but just seeing it from the dealer's perspective).

mwarrior

From the manuals I've read, nowhere does it say "must be done by a mechanic". Dont forget, most people at Jiffy Lube or Walmart's oil change place arent certified mechanics.
Heres a quote from an '07 Mazda 3's manual Section 8.

"Be extremely careful and prevent injury to yourself and others or damage to your vehicle when using this manual for inspection and maintenance.

If you're unsure about any procedure it describes, we strongly urge you to have a reliable and qualified service shop perform the work, preferably an Authorized Mazda Dealer.

Factory-trained Mazda technicians and genuine Mazda parts are best for your vehicle.
Without this expertise and the parts that have been designed and made especially for your Mazda, inadequate, incomplete, and insufficient servicing may result in problems. This could lead to vehicle damage or an accident and injuries.

For expert advice and quality service, consult an Authorized Mazda Dealer.

The owner should retain evidence that proper maintenance has been performed as
prescribed.

Claims against the warranty resulting from lack of maintenance, as opposed to defective
materials or authorized Mazda workmanship, will not be honored.

Any auto repair shop using parts equivalent to your Mazda's original equipment may
perform maintenance. But we recommend that it always be done by an Authorized
Mazda Dealer using genuine Mazda parts."

From the way I read that, it says "if you're unsure" about howto perform the maintenance, then have a "reliable and qualified service shop perform the work". It doesnt say it MUST be done at a service station or garage or mazda dealer.

I guess I can find copies of my receipts for the oil/filter for the times I did pay for it and use those if required. But in the end I'm still positive about 2 things. 1: I did all the normal maintenance required (who wants a car that doesnt run??) with synthetic oil and filter and engine flush at every other (sometimes every) oil change. and 2: This problem started and ended within 2days



Edit: I really have to start reading things before hitting submit. My definition above added.
Also, still waiting for anybody whos had experience in Canada and in the US regarding this problem (any province and any state at this point).

Thanks

Da P-Funk!

'Could oil be trapped in the top of the engine?' Not THAT much! I would pull the oil cap - and see if the valve cover was full of oil. If not - only one or two things possible - no oil serviced at the last change or massive leak (internal/burning or external/on the ground). You have not mentioned the massive James Bond cloud behind the car - so...



How long since the last time it was checked (before the knocking)? Changed? Who did it - buddy or you - how sure are you the oil went in the pan? You will need these answers (tell us too) for the dealership.

You may almost want to got to an independent shop first for an evaluation and estimate. Have them document their best evaluation as to what failed. You will need this to challenge through the dispute process. Once I went to an independent mechanic and showed documentation that the engine/head installed (on my Rustang many years ago) was cracked/failed. I had been to the shop that built the engine 3X complaining and told 'nothing is wrong with the engine'. Now he HAD to admit it and fessed up and tore the head off and (LO! and Behold!) found a crack. he replaced the head - all was good.

Document EVERYTHING said/done/who you talk to.

You may just get this fixed by Mazda. (maybe.)

mwarrior

Sorry about the delays. I'm supposed to finally get the car back tomorrow since Mazda approved the engine Two Weeks ago Tuesday (March 6, 2007).
Heres a summary of what happened since my last post.
(Forget the exact date, but early Feb): Driving the car to friend's place, the knocking turned into a banging, resulting in the engine completely seizing up, blowing a hole through the side (front) of the block, and a huge (2+liters/quarts?) puddle under the car.
I called up Mazda's roadside service, and had the car towed to a dealership.

Next day, dealership calls and says "We diagnosed the problem, you need a new engine".
Me: "It took this long for that?"
Dealer: "Yeah, and Mazda Canada's saying we need your oil change receipts because there was a lack of oil in the engine, so thats probably what caused it"
Me: "Umm wouldnt that be explained by the hole in the block?"
Dealer: "Well yes but they wanna see receipts anyways"
So I found and sent about 2+yrs worth (going back to 2004).

Dealer comes back saying "Mazda's saying the intervals were too long, and they want ALL the receipts from when you bought the car"
That took me about 2weeks to come up wtih. INCLUDING the fact that in the end of '04 I had a dealer invoice saying "noticed light tapping at load, this is normal for a car with 75,000 miles".

Anyways, Mazda Canada got the receipts around the 27th of this Feb (or somewhere around there). First they said "Theres 3 oil changes missing", at this point the dealer was getting pi$$ed at them too, and made a spreadsheet and also wrote "Customer changed the oil himself for those 3 oil changes, it is clearly written in his fax". They still delayed, and then realizing they have no way out of this, sent out an "independant appraiser" who went to the dealership, took some pictures, and an oil sample of whatever oil was left in the block.

They then delayed till the 6th because they were "waiting for the oil sampple analysis results". On the 6th I received a call from the dealer saying "They finally approved it, we're ordering the engine now". Once the engine went in, they had to replace the cruise control because it hadnt worked in ages (while its there why not have everything checked/fixed I figure).
The engine's in, and the cruise control should be fixed by tomorrow, so FINALLY I get the car back.

What I STILL havent been told... what was the CAUSE of the engine going? From what I've read about oil sample testing, they can tell what the cause was. The fact that Mazda authorized the replacement after the analysis leads me to believe it was definitely internal and they just dont want to say what it was, but rather put me through so much crap trying to deny every chance they got.

End cost for Mazda Canada: $850+ for rental car (from Feb 26 to March 16 was about $670ish, plus $76 for a 3day I did earlier, plus $105 for the weekend, plus taxes), $10,000MSRP (so cost would be say $5000CDN) for the engine, plus $1500 (dealer said $2000, so I'm guessing 1300 is ok for warranty) for the labo(u)r, and whatever they paid the appraiser and for the oil analysis.

What they COULD have done: Replace the block once they received the initial batch of invoices which included the "light tapping" comment on the repair order from a dealership. They would have saved at least $1,000.

At least on the bright side, if my transmission should go in the next 16 months, Mazda has all my service records on file now so they cant try pulling this ridiculous delay again. That and I have a brand new (not refurbed from what I've been told) engine.

Da P-Funk!

wOw.
You won! Congratulations!

Warning to me (and others who do their own maintenance) -KEEP THE RECIEPTS. I couldn't produce any today if i had to... I just hope the absolutely clean engine would be the clue...

Oil analysis looks for brass (bearings) chrome (cylinder linings) sludge/crud/viscosity. I sysupect the found elvated brass and clean oil....

LMAO at the 'it was low on oil' and your response!

mwarrior

I'm glad they fixed it. The day before they said "Its approved" I had called a dealership in Buffalo, as I was going to get teh car towed there, have the engine replaced, and then sue Mazda Canada in small claims court.

Main reasons: New engine in Canada: $10,000. Labor: $2,000.
Small claims limit in Ontario: $10,000CDN.

Cost of engine in Buffalo: $4,500US. Labor: $1,600, "plus incidentals like fluid which will run about $300". So lets say $2,000US.
Total cost in Buffalo: $6,500US or $7,650CDN plus the rental and towing bills I'd nail them for. STill under $10,000 and no reasonable judge would have ruled against me with even just the 2-3yrs of invoices, including the one that the dealer said "tapping sound heard". I know with superchargers and stuff its upto the dealer to prove that it was the modification that caused the damage, so in this case it should (or would had it gone legal) have been the dealer's responsibility to prove it was lack of maintenance.

And the lack of oil thing ya, even the dealer rep said that. When I asked "So whats the real cause?"
Answer: "No idea, we saw the lack of oil, hole in the block, and thats it. We dont tear them apart anymore, just replace them".

So the lessons here:
1: Keep the invoices and approx mileages. Or a scan or fax copy or something.
2: #1 is ESPECIALLY important with extended warranty from Mazda Canada (and I'd assume most third party warranty companies, as I havent had this problem with Ford ESP and Chrysler's service plan).
3: If you push it enough, and know you're in the right, theres a good chance you'll win one way or another
4: If the above happens and you need to sue Mazda in Ontario, PM me, I'm always up for an interesting trial ;-)

Jackelope

6 glad to hear everything is gonna work out