Aggressive Camshafts
June-5th-2003, 10:03 PM
#16
Use this to install stuff
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: State College, PA
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I am probably wrong here but if you got a port and polish done to your head wouldnt you be lowering your compression ratio since you are taking material out of the combustion chamber? or are you talking about putting high comp. pistons in
GCS I understand what you are looking to do with remaining NA. I feel the same way, but it is nearly impossible to get the power and torque of the guys running FI with our engines. Race cams and oversized valves are not going to outshine the price to have them made in the first place, meaning they are not going to give you crazy gains in the rev range our engine is capable of.
I will summerize this again for those who seem to be confused (Not aiming at you GCS)
HP is a function of revs. Our FS engine does not allow a high enough peak rpm or the breathing for breathtaking power. It has a fairly long stroke and a slew of other fixed issues dictating it's ability to remain NA. Anyone looking to easily build a NA FS that will outperform even a mildly turbocharged FS will be sadly shot down. The Speed World Challenge proteges are still only making around 240hp with a $17,000 engine and management system...
If I had to set a limit on the maximum power obtainable without any custom work or FI, I would say about 185hp. That would simply be a FS-ZE or equivalent FS and ECU without a primary cat, 4-2-1 header,exhaust, intake, and MSP 10.5:1 pistons...After that you will be running into controversial porting and polishing and other custom **** that will give you 2-3hp for 1000's of dollars and if done by some jackass will kill power anyway...
That would be a great engine for our cars, but the torque number may not rise much if at all, so you will still have trouble dusting a MSP protege...
Last edited by Installshield; August-21st-2004 at 03:17 AM.
June-5th-2003, 10:18 PM
#17
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Thanks Installshield, many good points. It looks like the FS-DE doesn't have too much potential, so I guess I won't spend the money like I planned/wanted to. Perhaps I can upgrade my suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes instead. I guess I'm just expecting a lot more NA power than the engine has to give. Who knows what'll happen next?
June-5th-2003, 10:40 PM
#18
Use this to install stuff
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: State College, PA
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It looks like the FS-DE doesn't have too much potential
I remember you and I both fucked around with this subject a while ago and that thread had more of the tech guys helping us out. This thread seems to have gained the attention of guys not understanding the Protege's engine as much as some others. The racing cams and whatever else mentioned will work on engines with the internal physics allowing higher revs, but an FS simply will not breathe or rev as well as some other 4 cylinders and that is controlled mostly by the engine's design rather than parts that can be swapped, polished, or ported...
The main reason I was interested in NA was the instant response and lack of need to buy everything at once. You could buy the various parts at different times. You can do the same with a turbo, but the majority of expense has to be paid initially...
Also I 100% agree with upgrading the suspension first. If you build a stupid powerful engine and don't have enough suspension power to handle it, you will be bordering the thoughts of Eclipse owners...
Last edited by Installshield; June-5th-2003 at 10:42 PM.
June-5th-2003, 11:45 PM
#19
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Originally posted by Installshield
Also I 100% agree with upgrading the suspension first. If you build a stupid powerful engine and don't have enough suspension power to handle it, you will be bordering the thoughts of Eclipse owners...
Also I 100% agree with upgrading the suspension first. If you build a stupid powerful engine and don't have enough suspension power to handle it, you will be bordering the thoughts of Eclipse owners...
June-6th-2003, 10:31 AM
#20
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 568
Originally posted by Gregersonsalvag
IF you want to do nos look into starting out with a 25 shot and work your way up. I'm not sure on the maxium HP numbers these cars can handle. But it should be in the range of about 200-230hp before you need internal work.
I'd personally get .405 cams Race PNP oversized valves and 4-1 headers keep the cats get a custom burned chip and you'd be running the same times as the mazdaspeed turbo version. You'd have a slightly rough idle but it wont be bad. Should cost you all about 3k if you do the labor yourself.
IF you want to do nos look into starting out with a 25 shot and work your way up. I'm not sure on the maxium HP numbers these cars can handle. But it should be in the range of about 200-230hp before you need internal work.
I'd personally get .405 cams Race PNP oversized valves and 4-1 headers keep the cats get a custom burned chip and you'd be running the same times as the mazdaspeed turbo version. You'd have a slightly rough idle but it wont be bad. Should cost you all about 3k if you do the labor yourself.
why not just throw in a turbo if your throwin down $3k?? I don't even think you can crack the prtege ECU, at least not the numbers you need to change.
June-6th-2003, 12:37 PM
#21
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 69
Well I was'nt completly sure when I saw that long stroke ratio. My little zetec has a relatively even stroke ratio compared to bore. I think its like 3.34x3.46 I noticed the protege engine has 3.26x3.62. Judging by the numbers produced out of Dyno2000 program it looks like you could get about 185-200hp for around 3k. But I'm not sure about street legality on that. An engine management system would set you back another 3 if you got one. I think you would be better off running boost. I'm not sure what the redline on a Protege engine is though. My motor runs to 7200rpms I just assumed yours could run about 7grand.
I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I'm learning to.
I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I'm learning to.
June-6th-2003, 01:27 PM
#23
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 69
Depends on what your Bore-Stroke ratio is.
Look up your car on someplace like www.car-point.com and get me the ratios off of it
Look up your car on someplace like www.car-point.com and get me the ratios off of it
June-8th-2003, 01:04 AM
#25
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Posts: 69
sorry its http://www.carpoint.com
June-9th-2003, 06:49 AM
#26
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Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
My opinion is that the FPDE is the best of the F series motor, because of the rod ratio, which bore doesn't affect.
My opinion is that the FPDE is the best of the F series motor, because of the rod ratio, which bore doesn't affect.
June-9th-2003, 04:23 PM
#28
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Merritt Island Fl
Posts: 151
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
[B]bore vs stroke doesnt mean crap....
Bore to Stroke ratio means a whole lot in engine design. High rpm motors need short strokes to achive those revs, and you won't hardly find a motor running 10k with a larger stroke than bore. It's about piston velocity/acceleration much more so than rod angle. Sure it plays on the piston acceleration too, just not as much as stroke. High rod ratio is really just a side benefit of an over square motor and a weakness of an under square motor. Given equal displacement, a long stroke motor (under square) will produce better low end torque due to the extra crank leverage, but suffer a low top due to the limited revs. A short stroke motor (over square) will suffer from poor low end but will rev out better making more power on the higher revs. This is the root of engine design. The F series was not intended to be a high rever and as such became under square, where rod ratio is almost insignificant.
I have custom ground cams in the .380 @ 223 range waitng to be installed, and just got the latest version of the AWR 4-2-1 header. As soon as I work out a static timing advance adjustment and test a defeat for the exhaust hall effect, it's going together with adjustable pulleys and a decked/ported head. It should be well worth the $1600. I'll let you all know how it goes, or doesn't, which ever the case may be. Problem is I test drove a Evo VIII this past weekend and am now wondering what's the point.
[B]bore vs stroke doesnt mean crap....
Bore to Stroke ratio means a whole lot in engine design. High rpm motors need short strokes to achive those revs, and you won't hardly find a motor running 10k with a larger stroke than bore. It's about piston velocity/acceleration much more so than rod angle. Sure it plays on the piston acceleration too, just not as much as stroke. High rod ratio is really just a side benefit of an over square motor and a weakness of an under square motor. Given equal displacement, a long stroke motor (under square) will produce better low end torque due to the extra crank leverage, but suffer a low top due to the limited revs. A short stroke motor (over square) will suffer from poor low end but will rev out better making more power on the higher revs. This is the root of engine design. The F series was not intended to be a high rever and as such became under square, where rod ratio is almost insignificant.
I have custom ground cams in the .380 @ 223 range waitng to be installed, and just got the latest version of the AWR 4-2-1 header. As soon as I work out a static timing advance adjustment and test a defeat for the exhaust hall effect, it's going together with adjustable pulleys and a decked/ported head. It should be well worth the $1600. I'll let you all know how it goes, or doesn't, which ever the case may be. Problem is I test drove a Evo VIII this past weekend and am now wondering what's the point.
June-9th-2003, 09:10 PM
#29
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 69
YOu don't have to be a member of carpoint just look up used car then look up the car that uses the 1.8 engine in it then look up engine part of the information on the car.
I can do it in about 1min if you give me the year and model of the car.
I can do it in about 1min if you give me the year and model of the car.
June-9th-2003, 11:16 PM
#30
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,111
Originally posted by zeus
I have custom ground cams in the .380 @ 223 range waitng to be installed, and just got the latest version of the AWR 4-2-1 header. As soon as I work out a static timing advance adjustment and test a defeat for the exhaust hall effect, it's going together with adjustable pulleys and a decked/ported head. It should be well worth the $1600. I'll let you all know how it goes, or doesn't, which ever the case may be. Problem is I test drove a Evo VIII this past weekend and am now wondering what's the point.
I have custom ground cams in the .380 @ 223 range waitng to be installed, and just got the latest version of the AWR 4-2-1 header. As soon as I work out a static timing advance adjustment and test a defeat for the exhaust hall effect, it's going together with adjustable pulleys and a decked/ported head. It should be well worth the $1600. I'll let you all know how it goes, or doesn't, which ever the case may be. Problem is I test drove a Evo VIII this past weekend and am now wondering what's the point.