lionel

Hi everybody,

91 1.6 SOHC carb 323:
car stalled while driving, wouldn't start again.
I first thought it was fuel related:
checked fuel pressure (mechanical pump) -> seems fine.

Ignition check: no spark at the plug
no spark at distributor

played a little bit with connectors and wires, checked the condenser and the car started and ran for about 30s and then stalled and wouldn't even crank....
Few minutes afterwards, engine would crank but not start...

Seems to be an intermittent electrical or ignition pb.
Any ideas or related experience?

Thanks

topfile

Your no crank condition is likely caused by repeated starting
attemps.This drains the ole battery as ya know...
You'll need a jump, to continue.

Has the engine got wet lately?
If so look at my thread…

No Start/ Stalling Resolved Jan 2005

The little connector on the distributor has a gasket beneath the
small plate that is held on by two screws. Likely that gasket
is all dried out. If water gets in there ...oh boy. Also, at the point
where the Dist. Cap meets the Dist. body verify you have a good
O-ring to keep water out in the future. Check the distributor cap for
any cracks.

If moisture is not an issue consider that the distributor talks to
the ECU telling it when to send a signal to your igniter, which
in turn will send a pulsed ground to the Primary of the voltage coil.
Thus delivering the right spark at the right time. A disruption in
any part of this circuit and it won't start.

Check to see if you are getting spark off the voltage coil. You could
use the the wire going to the the top of the distributor if you like.
If no spark there, then replace or test this wire. Still no spark?
Suspect voltage coil. Test it with a multimeter. Primary is 0.81 ohms
to 0.99 ohms. Secondary is 10k to 12k ohms. If the Voltage coil is
good, examine the igniter connections.

Always consider a poor ground somewhere as well. Look over that
thread I mentioned to help with this part.

Best Regards

lionel

cranking condition went on on and is now off after playing with wires next to coolant reservoir...

battery voltage is 12V+, so I guess it should crank.

Engine did not get wet at all. I am guessing there is an electrical pb on some wires next to the coolant reservoir. On my car (91 1.6l carb and not fuel injected), I've a set of 4 wires ending up on a connector on which there is a jumper wire on 2 of the 4 wires.
This wire set was loose, and I am suspecting an electrical pb there.

Thing is I don't have any tech manual and wire diagrams for the car, so it's pretty hard to test anything... I got one on ebay, and should get it anytime soon.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks!

--Lionel

lionel

forgot one thing:

incoming voltage at coil is fine, but engine still not cranking...
How to check the igniter and primary/secondary wirings?
I would need to know between which connectors out of the 4 (2 incoming, 2 going to distributor) I have to check resistance.
Thanks,

--Lionel

topfile

I have been away on business. Therefore, I couldn't respond.
You may have already fixed this, have you?

I'am not sure which wire set your speaking about.

However, if you want to check the resistance of the coil....
Unplug 2 pin connector from coil. Then disconnect plug wire from
voltage coil, that goes to the distributor cap. At the 2 pin connection
point, on the voltage coil, you should measure 0.89 to 0.99 ohms.
Remember to subtract your probe wire resistance from the reading.
Simply short your meter probes together to find your probe wire resistance.
Next, with one probe on either pin of the 2 pin connector and one
probe inside the barrel connection on the voltage coil (where the plug
wire was) you should measure between 10k to 12k ohms.

Of course, a bad voltage coil will not prevent the engine from
turning over(Cranking). This requires a different approach.

Basically to get the car to crank, one needs to consider the ignition
switch,fuses, relays, battery, selenoid, starter, and wiring.

Best Regards

lionel

Thanks for the help and the follow up.

no the car isn't fixed yet. I got a service manual on ebay, and I am waiting to get it to start the electrical/ignition checks.

However, the engine is now cranking. Battery voltage was about 11.6-12V (no load conditions) and it wouldn't crank, got the battery charged (13.4V with no load conditions) and the cranking pb was gone... Sounds weird to me.

But engine wouldn't start. I will check the coil according to your tests.
What about the igniter? Do you know how to set up the blinking lamp test?

Thanks,

--Lionel

topfile

O.K.....the battery voltage looks good to me.

Now, I don't having the wiring info for the 1.6L carburated engine.
However, I could give you an educated guess as to what your
looking for.

After you the measure the coil resistance, trace back your 2 pin connector
from the voltage coil. One of those wires should trace back to the igintion switch
likely through a fuse. The switch will provide a +12Volts to this wire when you
turn on the ignition. But alas, nothing will happen unless the igniter
provides a pulsed ground to the other wire of the 2 pin coil connector. Get it?
This completes the primary circuit. Therefore the voltage coil goes on-off-on-
off.... spark....spark....spark...and so on.

You see, the igniter actual has three connections. The computer(ECU), the
voltage coil, and chasis ground(the bolt). When the ECU activates the
igniter(SCR), like a switch the igniter connects the ground to the Voltage coil
momentarily with each activation from the ECU.

About the lamp test...I have not done this. I just switch the meter to
measure dc voltage and place the probes between the wire from the igniter
and +12V battery post. You should see the needle or display deflect to
just about 12V during cranking. You could try the lamp, but I don't know
the load your lamp tester would present to the igniter.

These igniters are very expensive, well over 100 bucks new. So be careful.
Make sure of your connection.

Best Regards

lionel

Thanks. Checked the coil, it's fine.

Got also the cranking pb solved, but both seem related:

Pb was with the connectors (starting wire) at the ignition switch. This car got stolen once, and had been started by playing with the wires at the ignition switch. Was supposed to have been fixed by the dealer, but well after looking at it, I wouldn't call it a professional job: They took out the two connectors on the switch and relaced them with single basic connectors at each wire without any locking system. They also took out a little bit of length so the wires are now short and loose...

Anyways, with the starting wire well connected, engine is cranking. Even got it started and running fine. I then tried to reproduce the loose condition on the wire and disconnected it with engine running. Engine stopped. Plugged the wire back , car is cranking but NOT starting!

After looking at the wiring diagrams, it seems the starting wire (top black on the ignition switch) is also going trough the engine control module (ECM). I was wondering whether unplugging that wire with engine running might cause a bad signal to the ECM and prevent the ignition from working fine.

I disconnected the battery to get the ECM reset, but it won't start ....

Any ideas?

Best Reagards

--Lionel

topfile

Hope you've got it started again.
Some ideas if not.....

1. Anytime one dissconnects a voltage coil during a power up condition
an inductive kick occurs....a discharge if you will. When you disconnected
you removed the 12volts to the voltage coil. I would expect your condenser
(capacitor) to ground to dissipate it. Therefore not harming anything. Really,
disconnecting the ignition switch connector, one
would think, would not be much different than turning the ignition off.
Hope this is the case.

2. Check all your fuses, under the dash and under the hood.

3. Probably still have a open wire from your rigged connector. Dissconnect
the battery and ohm out the connector in question.

4. Disconnect the Voltage coil 2 pin connector. Reconnect your battery.
Verify the +12volt at the 2 pin connector when the igntion is in the "on"
position.

5. Review the thread.

The fact that you got it started once is very encouraging. Once it starts next time
(and it will) let run and reach operating temp. to the point it kicks on the fan at
the radiator. You want to make sure everything works so you don't get stuck
out somewhere.

Best Regards

topfile

Some other considerations....

1. Replace plugs, NGK, properly gapped. Replace plug wires.
2. Gas treatment. (cheap)
3. Timing
4. Low Fuel
5. Coolant Temp. Sensor
6. Torn or Looose air intake hose.
7. Vacuum Leak (replace suspect lines)

lionel

Thanks for all the hints.
I tried again, it wouldn't fire (no spark).

I read again your posts. I wonder if it applies to my ignition system:
On the 1.6 carb eng (mine), the ignition is not electronic but transistorised.
The coil has thus 3 sets of wire:
- secondary (plug wire to distributor)
- incoming 2 pins connector from engine harness (12V with ignition ON)
- outgoing 2 pins connector going from coil to distributor (I guess the igniter)

On the 1.6 & 1.8 fuel injected, I believe it's an electronic ignition.

I do have a diagnostic plug, but I don't know what to check...
The diag plug has 2 connectors with the following indications:

connector 1: (x means empty)
x IG- GND TFA F/P x
x x


Connector 2 (biggest)
FEN MEN TEN +B
GND FAT x x x x x
TAT TBS x x x x

Any ideas for what TFA, F/P ,,FEN, MEN, TEN, +B, FAT, TAT, TBS stand for?

Thanks
Best Regards

topfile

I suppose that the information does
apply. Only question is where is the igniter
with 1.6L carb. engine? In the distributor,
bolted on the chasis, in the coil pack? I don't
know. I don't suppose it has points. All these
things simply effect the actual connection and
wire routes.

Anyways, same theory of operation. You need
12V and pulsed ground on the primary of the
Voltage coil. Did you confirm 12V and pulsed
ground again?

No spark condition could be the ECU, Distributor,
Igniter, or something simple, as we have discussed.

Clean all the grounds you can get a wrench on.
Wondering now if the condensor is bad.

Concerning dianostics... generally, on the 1.8L
you connect TEN and GND , turn ignition to run (not start)
and count the check engine light flashes. Long flash
first digit, short flash second. If light simply comes on and
fades out, no problem found. Not sure about the 1.6L
carb, hope the procedure is in your tech manual.

Don't know what the markings on the connectors indicate.

Best Regards

topfile

Lionel,

Any Progress?

lionel

Hello,

thanks for caring.

Well not much progress. I will look at it tonight with a friend and proceed with more tests, including pulsed ground.
The igniter is within the distributor.

My experience with japanese car (88 Accord with 227kmi, 91 Infiniti G20 with 135kmi, and 95 civic with 95kmi, all with original ignition system) is that those car are very reliable and troubles are rarely caused by faulty computers, electronics or sensors. It's very often only connectors or outside element affecting the sensor sensitivity (for instant very dirty coolant, or missing coolant can adversely affect the sensors signals).

This is why I don't want to proceed by replacing expensive parts like the igniter or distributor, and i'd like to pinpoint the exact problem. The thing is I don't have a detailed factory manual, so it's kind of hard to guess the right testing procedure.

After my further checking of tonight, I'll go and talk to th service department of a Mazda dealer;

All the best,

--Lionel

lionel

got some fresh news:

pulse ground: test failed, 0V constant.

test of condenser on the distributor: passed, capacity to spec.

And then spark was there at the secondary of the coil. Started the engine right away and engine fired up for about 1 or 2 mn and died by itself after going trough gentle misfire.

The only thing (I could think of) that I did to make it go from the no start to the start condition is testing the condenser... with a capacitor tester, ignition off and capacitor + connector unplugged.

So my next non educated guess was bad condenser. Tried to test it again and it failed (0 capacity).
So could be that condenser. Will try to get one from the dealer tomorrow.

Hopefully close to the end of the story...

--Lionel