protejay

After some decent time spent grinding/smoothing the genie's ports and removing some weld on the inside of the headers; i get the old exhaust off, and put the genie on. I had my doubts....sure enough - they're ~ 6 inches too short!!

Why doesn't ANYONE make GOOD headers?? Too bad i don't have the equipment to make them myself; i *think* i could do a better job...

So far the BEST headers i've seen are the custom ones Steve Charles had made for the dohc AND sohc. Darryl's RMM look to be a close second...seems his primaries were at least fitted to be close to an equal-length design?? Honestly i don't know if the Genie is any better than the Pacesetter - at least the Pacesetter fits

Well the idea is to put the heeaders on; chop off the cat flange, mount it to the stock cat flange; then fit/weld a short pipe on. At least there are apparently NO other fitment issues.

Its too bad....almost every review i've read about Genie headers has been positive about quality and fitment. Derrick did mention the company had changed hands several times; so i guess some ups and downs with their product.

Davard

The Pacesetter comes with a little 6" section of pipe that connects between the header and the cat.

mazdaspeedwest

same with the RMM's i have, ball joint with springs and bolts.

I found a shop with nice braided flex joints, $75 installed.

ManuelGz

OK this is exactly what I was looking for, this forum is great. I was about to install my GENIE headers and already taking apart the heat shield then I realized that the flex pipe has to go and I also noticed that the headers were too short??? So Wouldn't something break if we don't use the flex pipe ? and now, this means that I have to take it to a muffler shop to have it installed incase I need to add 6 inches 0f tubing?
I went to a muffler shop today to give me an idea of how much they charge to install the header and the guy said: They are illegal ? ?? then he wanted to charge me $120 to put them on.

What to do....? Are they ilegal, any problems at the smog check station? Any good mufler shops in the L.A area? I'm willing to drive 100 miles. I live in San Pedro, CA.

mazdaspeedwest

nope, not CARB legal in cali, so technically they will not pass visual inspection at smog checks and that has been my worst nightmare...as my RMMs are not CARB either. but by moving the O2 to a spot where it would collect form ALL cylynders, then it might fly, and help in the actual smoging process too.

but if you build an OEM type heat sheild, and we can't see them, well then....i guess they aren't there. This was the advice given to me by a smog tech....

there are no CARB legal headers for the Protege that i know of.

well, HB is within 100miles, and the shop i go to has the flex pipes for $75 installed....we could mount the header and temp up a pipe, then get the flex installed.....

marc93lx

You can buy flex pipe from JC Whitney, I don't know about the quality. Just a thought though. Here is the link:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jht...176678&BQ=jcw2

ManuelGz

Thanks for the reply:
Darryl :
About the smog check, I got friends that work at smog stations and I don't think I'll have a problem with it.
Even though it sucks to drive like that with an ilegal header. What if I get pulled over by one of those cops that wanna see what's under the hood? I guess I'm gonna have to have that heat shield ready just in case.
About the flex pipe: So if I don't put one in there that means something will breake right?
I'm gonna take my car to the shop where I got the cat back system and ask the guy if he can install one of those little flex pipes. I want to install it my self and then take it to the shop, so I can save some money, besides I can give it the right torque to the manifold etc, but I don't think I can drive like that with the cat back open all the way to the shop? Too much noise... Any suggestions?

Marc93lx :

Thanks for the link, I just bought from them a U mandrel bend pipe for my CAI that I'll be making one of these days, That is a good option too, thanks for the link.

Thanks for taking the time

mazdaspeedwest

for a temp pipe, i'd cut the stock part that bolts to the cat flange and just U clamp it to the header. if it has the flared ball end, cut it off, won't need it with the flex joint.

Yes, without some sort of flex releif, something will break.

those JCW flex joints are pretty cheap...they have the right size too.

protejay

Went to SWAT last night...markp IS still around

Last best dyno:

115.6 hp @ 6500 RPM
107.4 ftlbs @ 4750 RPM

2nd run with the headers:

122.8 hp @ 6500 RPM
113.3 ftlbs @ 4500 RPM

Last time was warm - not hot - and he had the fan on the car the whole time. Last night was definitely cooler; no fan so as to try and balance the results. Otherwise the dyno was set up the same.

The engine feels 'stronger', the throttle response is better, the pacesetter exhaust sounds better than it ever has - and it didn't really get louder. I do though 'hear' the engine more up front.

I'm pretty happy with the results; only thing i haven't done in my plans is get the lightweight flywheel on the car

protejay

Thanks Jesse! I guess modding the Pro has turned into an interesting hobby - just trying to see what's possible.

Some other info...
Last time i dynoed i ran 87 octane; this time i had 89. Also installed a new o2 sensor, but i don't think that makes a difference at WOT since the ecu is in closed loop mode...

The chart is interesting. The headers resulted in gains everywhere. The most of course at 4500 and 6500. The torque curve noticeably flattens some at around 5000 RPM - when VICS switches runners....then it starts making the more solid gains again all the way to redline.

protejay

At first i honestly was disappointed with the header design; when comparing it to all the 'nice' equal length headers made for civics, sentras, miatas, etc.

It looks like on the bottom half that they used 2 of the same pipes - just cut them to the necessary length so they'd both fit the collector; instead of making 2 *different* pipes so as to equalize the length.... you can get an idea of what i mean from the picture that was posted. So it just seems they cut corners where they could. The welds seem strong but sloppy...the header seems to have a 'just thrown together' sort of look - if that makes sense

On the plus side the flanges are nice and thick, the grey coating hasn't burned off or changed at all even with the heavy runs on the dyno, they fit fine (other than being short), and the o2 sensor bung is in a tight BUT workable place so as to be able to get to it even with the headers on the car....

Some (i think) fairly accurate measurements:

Secondary size: 1 5/8"
(Primaries seemed to be same size - maybe slightly smaller)

Cat flange outlet: 1 15/16"

Primary lengths:
#1 - 14"
#2 - 14"
#3 - 13 1/8"
#4 - 12 1/8"

Secondary lengths:
#1 and #4 - 16 3/8"
#2 and #3 - ~ 18"

Total lengths incl middle flange:
#1 - 31 1/8"
#2 - 32 3/4"
#3 - 31 7/8"
#4 - 29 1/4"

So if these headers resulted in these gains, i guess it shows what a restriction the stock manifold is (as Jesse for one has said before); and also gives reason to believe an equal-length, better designed header may result in even greater gains I honestly still don't know a lot about header design - i just see some areas for (possible) improvement?!?......comments welcome

ManuelGz

Protejay:

Excellent work !! this Pro's have a lot of potencial, what's next? Adjustable cam gears? Cams? 122.8 at the wheels, that's really good

Did you take any pics of your header, specially the part that meets with the flex pipe, I'm about to install my header too, but I have to work on it first, porting, grinding, etc..

protejay

Well...i have some stuff to pay for

When possible, though, i think i would do cams next. Markp thinks the stock head actually flows fairly well from the factory; the money spent for a port and polish may not really be worth it unless you start doing more serious work. So maybe before i'd port and polish, i'd try somewhat stronger cams. I probably would check out Crower for some regrinds since they are here in San Diego and i've heard pretty good things about them in general.

Also, mark thinks there may be something to gain in the stock throttle body. He said that is something he's going to experiment with on the miata. RandyS has overbored his; of course he's done some major engine work. Maybe with all the 'breathing' mods i've done, though, the throttle body may be worth looking at....

protejay

I'd like to make some brackets to actually keep the stock heat shield. As far as smog...i know that may lead to problems; but you know, my o2 sensor had never been replaced on my car(12 years old now) and i had noticed definitely worse gas mileage after the RX7 VAF install. Well at first i wanted to save money and reuse the original o2 sensor...: haha - there was NO WAY it was going to come out...i ended up rounding it with the RIGHT size wrench!! i'm sure there would be a way to get it off, but to me this is at least an argument in support of having the new header style manifold and a new *efficiently* working o2 sensor...do they want me to have a sick 12 year old o2 sensor on the car or rather a brand new one???? i know its prob a poor argument, but at least its one reason i can give as to why the stock manifold is gone....

Picked up a Bosch universal specified for our pro from Autozone for just $24 and it fit fine. In fact i've already noticed my gas mileage is comparable to before the RX7 VAF - and that's including some fun runs to redline!

Got a new exhaust head gasket from Carquest for $18. It fit perfect and is the same 'layered' metal design as stock. A gasket came with the header, but didn't look like it was worth using.

I went to a local exhaust shop, talked to them about what i needed; went to a nearby parking lot, took the old exhaust off, put on the header, then drove the short distance back. Yep, it was LOUD - sounded like a Harley!! :
Had them put on a 'balljoint' and a short crush bent 2" pipe (only a minor bend) for $115. Not what i wanted and more than it should have been, but i needed to go ahead and get it done.

So the headers have actually cost about $385.

One other thing, when I'm going 70, the engine is at about 3600 RPM....that's only a 'few' rpms away from peak torque. Plenty of pep there to be flyin in no time - don't even need to drop to 4th

protejay

last post of 1st page talks of more possible mods...

that 122.8 at the wheel is the uncorrected number - corrected for altitude its right @ 130 hp. not bad for a BP motor with 208,000 miles!! :

and sorry, no pics...