beachnut

Well, if you can get all of that for $500 then that's a damn good deal - enough to make one think real hard!

A few questions if you know:

I was reading the KL-ZE swap info on the MX-3 forum and they were talking about certain intake manifolds bumping into the master cylinder. I wonder if that could be a problem with the KL-03 mani? The ZE mani is lower and flatter.

I think I've seen ZE ECU's advertised and promoted for US KL's as upgrades. I've seen the intake mani offered the same way. Ever heard of this? Wonder if it really works?

So what vehicle is this fantastic engine combo coming from? An MX-6? I know the last year for that car was '97, so earlier ones would probably have more miles. Do you know how long into the 626 model they used the KL-03? It would seem to me it'd be hard to find a 626 KL with a 5spd though.

Tweeaks

Well here's something for you guys. There isn't just a 30 hp diff between the KL-03 and KL-ZE, but 38 horses@the wheels heres a Dyno http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5335/klvsstk.htm

UCSBgeek

Probe V6s are usually labelled GT or 24v IIRC, don't think the second gens used any other V6s?
The intake manifold I'm pretty sure is an upgrade. ECU, I highly doubt it's worth the money (could be wrong!). The ECU was programmed to accept the 100+ octane fuel they have over there. I don't think that you'll have a problem with the intake manifold bumping on our cars, esp. from the KL-03s (once again could be wrong!).

superdave

The DOHC protege uses the same basic transmission as the K8, KL-03, and KL-ZE. All are G series transmissions. As has been said many times on this forum, HP doesn't kill transmissions, torque does. The G series is said to be good until 350 ft-lbs, so long as it isn't thrashed.

superdave

There are two different manifold styles for the ZE. There is one with a gentle bend, that will interfere with the master cylinder, and a sharp bend that wont. Now, I believe it is said that the one with the sharp bend isn't a 'real' KL-ZE. You guys should head over to probe talk, mx-3.com, etc and read up.... LOTS of good info at those places.

BTW I've had thoughts on this interference with the master cylinder... I was thinking of moving the battery to the trunk, then moving the master cylinder over. Don't know if this is possible, but its another thing to add to the list to look into!

superdave

Any second gen probe/mx-6 with the v6, is a KL-03. Also, I think 93 on 626's had the kl-03. I don't know when that ended... may have been in the 626 until its recent end. Either way, the 626 in the same era as the second gen mx-6, has the KL-03.

Regarding the ECU. I've read that since the ZE ECU is tuned for the higher octane gas, here it isn't used to its full potential. It seems a KL-03 ECU on a KL-ZE engine here, with our lower octane gas, doesn't lose as much power as you would think. Some say that the cost different isn't worth the minimal HP increase of having a KL-ZE ECU on a KL-ZE engine. Mind you I havent had hands on experience here, this is just what my research has showed.

PinkMX-3

Well that guess is clearly wrong. 700cc extra, beefy split block design, better rod ratio, and shorter stroke are 4 good reasons why the KL has more potential for ultimate power, reliability, usable power, and transient response than a BP. You guys need to answer the following questions for yourself first before you figure out what engine is "better":

1) budget - decide how much money you're willing to put into the car to make it do what you want it to do.
2) goals - what you want the car to do (run 9's, win SCCA SM nationals, be a fun street car, meet emissions, T88 at 30psi aka dyno queen, Normally aspirated, run carbs and solid lifters up to 10k RPM, whatever)
3) time frame - decide when you want the car to do what you want it to do

For some people, the BPT is going to be much better than the KLZE. For others, the BPT will not meet the goals that the KLZE will meet easier/cheaper. An argument on this is senseless because everybody's answers to the above 3 questions are different, so the answer is going to be different for everybody. If you want to know more about KL engines, read my page about it and check out the MX-3.com V6 FAQ forum.

PinkMX-3

Many things to say, so I'm going to try to condense them into one post:

1) My KL36 KLZE ECU is in the mail. I'll tell you how it runs with my KLZE when I get it installed next week.

2) The Eunos 800's look like Mazda Millenias, but have flat topped pistons, KL01 cams, and a curved manifold. They still dyno at around 170whp stock, which indicates they are around 200bhp.

3) Unless you're going to relocate the master cylinder, you'll have to use the Eunos 800/Mazda Millenia 2.5L intake manifold on a BG Protege

4) KLDE's came in 626's until 2002. After 98 they are MAF equipped, but the ECU requires the input from the ignition mobiliser circuit which is specific to each 626's ignition.

5) All K series V6's came with G series boxes, which are the same internally as the gearboxes that come on the Protege LX. They have a rounder bellhousing than the 4cyl's tranny, so they are not directly swappable.

6) All 93-97 Probe GT's had the KLDE DOHC 24v V6 engine.

7) The VAF from a V6 MX-3 is the same part number as the VAF from the KLZE, so you'll need that to run a ZE properly [unless you're going Haltech/AEM/SDS]

8) KLZE's regularly pass emissions with flying colours, even without the cat. High compression and the low BSFC that the K series head affords is good for cleaning up emissions.

9) The standard KLDE manifold that comes in PGT's and MX-6's is the worst of all K series manifolds as far as flow and design go. I'd run a stock MX-3 GS manifold before I used a PGT one. I do have a ported MX-3 GS manifold for sale if anybody is interested.

10) I got my KLZE for 1100 shipped to my door last summer. I'm running the taller 4.111 gearing and it still gives LT1 C4's and T/A's a good run, as well as the usual VTEC Hatchbacks etc.

11) KLZE's can run boost just as well as a KLDE can. The idiots on Probetalk that say you cant know absolutely nothing about the craploads of mechanical octane that's built into the head of the K series. Rather, they are going by what Gus at the machine shop told them from when he was working on SBC swamp buggies back in '84.


http://plaza.ufl.edu/mugen23/KLZE.htm

Loginology

Damn looks like there's really no "best" decision on swaps . That $1500 could go towards a turbo and manifold.

I think if you're planning to have a boosted 6, go with the KL-03...but if you're staying N/A go with the KL-ZE

PinkMX-3

More KLZE Emissions results.

Note that the KLZE running on a K8 VAF/ECU will run chokingly rich and foul out plugs. I know cause I have the same setup till my ZE ECU comes.

SePHiRo

As I read through this I had so much to say, but then I read Dave's post and he pretty much said most of it for me


Anyway, the straight neck intake manifold CAN be used, in fact an A-spec swap will most likely get the straight neck mani unless you make sure to tell those cheap ****** that you want a eunos 800 manifold (and please do). What they do is cut a 'V" shaped piece out of the neck of the mx6 manifold to clear the cylinder but just by looking at it I can tell that it robs plenty of power doing that because 1- its very hard to weld it back on perfectly straight, so the knife edged KLZE mani right off the bat flows less 2- The manifold is designed around its VRIS (variable resonance induction system) which is similar to VICS on the 3rd gen protege's but even more functional! Changing the size and angle of the neck must throw things off completely...
One option is to get the ZE and install a ported KL03 manifold and this way it will hold you back by only about 6-7whp and you can keep EGR (for emissions) and use the stock KL03 ECU



Here is what an A-SPEC swap looks like on my buddy's 323:
CLICK FOR PIC
You can pic up this car (93 low mileage 323 SE w/power everything) with the ZE installed and a bunch of other mods (slightly more aggressive than ZE cams, stage 3 Clutch Masters clutch, custom stainless headers, 2.5" exhaust, ZE ECU, etc) for $6000US (painted black now)


here's a KLZE protege (he's close with the ASPEC guys and probably a member here, so I wouldn't be surprised if you've all seen this site): http://protege.a-spec.ca/

SePHiRo

Because
1- it costs less to begin with so more $ can be put into better turbo components (in the end it may be the same power but achieved a different way)

2- lower compression = less overall tunning to run higher boost numbers on pump gas

3- Since you're much more likely to blow up your engine if you don't know what you're doing with a turbo, its nice to be able to replace a bottom end for $150-$300 instead of $350-$600

4- A budget KL03 + used turbo components (if you know how to scavenge) could cost as little as $1500 for everything you need (inlcuding an FMIC) but installation and piping would be pricey!


But yeah, due to the higher compression and better flowing heads/intake/cams/etc adding a turbo to a ZE would yield more power... just make sure you tune everything properly before trying to find out what it can do

SePHiRo

Tuning = money, with the same tuning on 9.2 you might be able to do 9psi and on a 10.0 you might not be able to go over 8psi before pinging...

You can pretty much disregard most of my arguments, there was something that never quite clicked in as I was typing (I was tired as ****!), the price difference is minimal for you guys. I'm used to PGT's and my arguments are more for turbo'ing a stock PGT over dropping in a ZE and turbo'ing that... for us, the price difference is HUGE! Pretty much the cost of the ZE itself can get you a turbo kit which although nothing special, it can get you into the 220whp range with little tuning.