Anyone into road courses?
July-14th-2003, 09:16 AM
#1
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Two corners ahead
Posts: 63
Anyone into road courses?
I see a lot of autocross and drag racing posts, but I was wondering if anyone else here do Driver Education, track events, road racing, etc.
It would be cool to compare notes, setups, techniques, lap times, etc.
It would be cool to compare notes, setups, techniques, lap times, etc.
July-14th-2003, 09:38 AM
#2
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Manila, Philippines
Posts: 50
Well I just recently entered an event called "Run What You Brung" wherein you enter your car and do timed laps. I've also tried slalom racing (solo 2 format) and am interested in trying out Rallyecross. Besides that, I always go up the mountain nearby for some togue hehe.
Then again, I don't think I'll be able to compare notes since I'm here in the tropics.
Then again, I don't think I'll be able to compare notes since I'm here in the tropics.
July-14th-2003, 03:21 PM
#4
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 134
It's not your fault, but after searching the web for Solo I time trials, to see what they are, I stumbled across Road Rally and RallyCross, and damn I wanna go RallyCross now! and maybe RoadRally, but I dunno who'd I use as a navigator.
July-14th-2003, 03:27 PM
#5
Cripple Fight!!!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,944
Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
I'm not willing to add a bar to my car for the weight penelty. I'm also not willing to goto an open track without a rollbar.
I'm not willing to add a bar to my car for the weight penelty. I'm also not willing to goto an open track without a rollbar.
you WILL like it i can guarantee it that much
July-14th-2003, 03:41 PM
#6
formerly chastan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California, USA
Posts: 2,350
I've done one HPDE event at Willow Springs (level 1 only, which is basically instructional) and 2 "driver's clinic" events at buttonwillow. I've learned sooo much and had a great deal of fun.
If you're worried about not having a rollbar, just don't be an idiot and try and reenter the course at-speed or fight it if you go off the course. It's better to get your car a little dusty instead of damaged.
And remember, I'm doing this with a slow *** car(103hp automatic), and I think you'd learn a lot more in my car than you would trying to do the course in a Corvette, Viper, or M3, and have just as much fun... maybe not as much raw fun from the speed
If you're worried about not having a rollbar, just don't be an idiot and try and reenter the course at-speed or fight it if you go off the course. It's better to get your car a little dusty instead of damaged.
And remember, I'm doing this with a slow *** car(103hp automatic), and I think you'd learn a lot more in my car than you would trying to do the course in a Corvette, Viper, or M3, and have just as much fun... maybe not as much raw fun from the speed
July-14th-2003, 03:45 PM
#7
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Two corners ahead
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Maybe I should start a separate topic, but I wanted to ask you guys about the balance of your car (at the limit) with your current setup.
What I'm after is to end up with a setup that, if I'm taking a corner and I'm on the gas, the car is neutral or even oversteer a bit, if this is possible. I don't want to have to lift because of understeer pushing the car out of the track.
Is this a pipe dream?
Comments?
What I'm after is to end up with a setup that, if I'm taking a corner and I'm on the gas, the car is neutral or even oversteer a bit, if this is possible. I don't want to have to lift because of understeer pushing the car out of the track.
Is this a pipe dream?
Comments?
July-14th-2003, 05:49 PM
#8
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Manila, Philippines
Posts: 50
for me, if i can't maintain neutral handling i'd go for very mild understeering rather than loads of oversteer. i'm afraid of spinning out.
also, the best way to avoid understeering is to get your entry right.
what have you done to the car already? if you want to add oversteer, i think you can upgrade your lower rear tie bar. that's if i understood the threads about it right
also, the best way to avoid understeering is to get your entry right.
what have you done to the car already? if you want to add oversteer, i think you can upgrade your lower rear tie bar. that's if i understood the threads about it right
July-14th-2003, 07:06 PM
#9
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I would rather have a bit of oversteer at the limit, if not neutral. I can control it and not lose as much momentum in the corners.
But yes, mild understeer would be better than heavy oversteer.
I can have a perfect entry, but if the car pushes, it will run out of room. Unless I take later apexes, which would mean slower corner entry, which is not a great idea in a low power car because it means I can't carry as much speed into the turn.
Actually, I am buying the car later this week, but I'm already planning my course of action because I'm a track junkie.
I'm guessing it will probably mean something like spring rates not too diferent between front and rear, plus a big rear bar. I'm just curious about any combination using Eibach or H&R springs, etc. to see if any of those would do it, or if I'm going to have to go with ground control coilovers.
I wish I knew the stock rates and the rates of the Eibach's, H&R's, etc.
But yes, mild understeer would be better than heavy oversteer.
I can have a perfect entry, but if the car pushes, it will run out of room. Unless I take later apexes, which would mean slower corner entry, which is not a great idea in a low power car because it means I can't carry as much speed into the turn.
Actually, I am buying the car later this week, but I'm already planning my course of action because I'm a track junkie.
I'm guessing it will probably mean something like spring rates not too diferent between front and rear, plus a big rear bar. I'm just curious about any combination using Eibach or H&R springs, etc. to see if any of those would do it, or if I'm going to have to go with ground control coilovers.
I wish I knew the stock rates and the rates of the Eibach's, H&R's, etc.
Last edited by cortez; July-14th-2003 at 07:31 PM.
July-14th-2003, 10:29 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 290
if your entry isnt right, fix it. oversteer isnt waht you want in a FF because you cant use the gas to catch it, so you just will be worried as heck. the most important thing is to get your speed down and do a smooth accurate turn-in.
Of course, if it were an ae86, you would want gobs of oversteer
Of course, if it were an ae86, you would want gobs of oversteer
July-15th-2003, 08:44 AM
#11
Hoosier daddy?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 563
Come this February, I should hopefully be getting my comp license. With that I will hopefully participate in a few SCCA ITS races in an Acheiva SCX. Until I can afford to put my Miata into SM, the Acheiva will be the way to go. I'll be running mostly at Road Atlanta. Racing wheel to wheel is something I've been wanting to do for quite some time now.
July-15th-2003, 09:37 AM
#12
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Two corners ahead
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Kevin, look me up in ITA Miata #11 whenever you go to Rd.ATL. My name is Ony.
PseudoRealityX, I know what you mean about the rear toe, but that's the "if everything else fails" step, at least for me.
I am leaning towards the GC solution. I don't know if I'll go with the 250/200 combo or stiffer like 300/250. Also sway bars to fine tune.
I'm also planning on adjustable camber/caster plates. More front caster (up to a point) makes wonders for reducing understeer on McPherson cars.
By the way, I drove a Mini Cooper S this weekend at Road Atlanta. The car had sway bars and 17" rims. It handled very, very well. It did have a bit of understeer at the limit, but I bet that a good alignment would tune that out and make it more neutral. If I can get a 1st gen Pro to behave like that (and I don't see why I couldn't), I'll be very happy with it.
Also, the path that one takes when doing these changes is important. I want to start with good tires and then move to the camber/caster plates and an alignment. That way, I'll be able to tell what balance I'm starting with and how stiff I need to go with sway bars and springs to control the contact patch, lean, camber change, etc (compromising for the street usage also) and pick shocks to control the rates. Probably pick sways before bars, even though it should be the other way around, but it's a compromise I make because of ease of install, price and street usage.
Anyway, I think I'm rambling too much. Suspension/chassis setup is a passion of mine and I love having discussions on the subject.
Feel free to add and comment.
The funny thing is, I still haven't picked up the Pro. I NEED to sell the WRX, hopefully this week, but I'm pretty excited about the Pro. With the WRX there is not enough money left to mod and play (parts are a lot more expensive), so with the Pro, I'll be able to have more fun.
PseudoRealityX, I know what you mean about the rear toe, but that's the "if everything else fails" step, at least for me.
I am leaning towards the GC solution. I don't know if I'll go with the 250/200 combo or stiffer like 300/250. Also sway bars to fine tune.
I'm also planning on adjustable camber/caster plates. More front caster (up to a point) makes wonders for reducing understeer on McPherson cars.
By the way, I drove a Mini Cooper S this weekend at Road Atlanta. The car had sway bars and 17" rims. It handled very, very well. It did have a bit of understeer at the limit, but I bet that a good alignment would tune that out and make it more neutral. If I can get a 1st gen Pro to behave like that (and I don't see why I couldn't), I'll be very happy with it.
Also, the path that one takes when doing these changes is important. I want to start with good tires and then move to the camber/caster plates and an alignment. That way, I'll be able to tell what balance I'm starting with and how stiff I need to go with sway bars and springs to control the contact patch, lean, camber change, etc (compromising for the street usage also) and pick shocks to control the rates. Probably pick sways before bars, even though it should be the other way around, but it's a compromise I make because of ease of install, price and street usage.
Anyway, I think I'm rambling too much. Suspension/chassis setup is a passion of mine and I love having discussions on the subject.
Feel free to add and comment.
The funny thing is, I still haven't picked up the Pro. I NEED to sell the WRX, hopefully this week, but I'm pretty excited about the Pro. With the WRX there is not enough money left to mod and play (parts are a lot more expensive), so with the Pro, I'll be able to have more fun.
July-15th-2003, 09:04 PM
#13
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Palm Coast, FL
Posts: 201
If you are looking for 1st gen track setup info....
there is a guy, Dave, in Raleigh, NC who works for Krause and England. K&E is big into Road Racing especially vintage cars.
http://www.krauseandengland.com/
Anyways, this guy Dave used to race a 1st gen in ITA. He could probably be able to help you out with some suspension setup- especially for South East tracks.
there is a guy, Dave, in Raleigh, NC who works for Krause and England. K&E is big into Road Racing especially vintage cars.
http://www.krauseandengland.com/
Anyways, this guy Dave used to race a 1st gen in ITA. He could probably be able to help you out with some suspension setup- especially for South East tracks.
July-16th-2003, 03:14 PM
#14
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Aurora,Ill
Posts: 14
Cortez - I have tracked my Pro5 twice this season. First at Gingerman in South Haven, Mi and lastly at Blackhawk Farms in Rockton, Ill. Both times I found the car to be very competent. I have Sprint springs that are approx 2" drop. I think these are more cosmetic springs because I am beginning to wonder if the car is pushing more because of poor spring rates. The rear spring rate in particular seems to be very soft so my next mod will be a rear sway bar. The car seems to be very neutral at the limit and in a few cases were I thought I should have gotten into trouble the car recovered well. I would like it to be a little looser though because having gone from a Miata to this car I am used to a lot of lift throttle oversteer to position the car and the Pro5 doesn't seem to do that again possible due to my crappy springs. What did impress me was the brakes. At Gingerman I had the OEM pads and I experienced minimal fade. Blackhawk I upgraded to Hawk HP plus as it is a very hard track on brakes. Other than boiling my OEM dot 3 fluid the brakes did very well and thats my own fault for not upgrading. Both times I was able to keep up with much faster cars in the corner sections - the straightaways were a much different matter but I expected that. I will be curious to hear your impressions when you finally get the car.
Tim
Tim
July-16th-2003, 03:51 PM
#15
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Two corners ahead
Posts: 63
Sweet!
I'll be sure to let you know. I also have a lot of Miata seat time, so your input is very valuable in comparing both.
I've seen that the SCCA trunk kit for the 2nd and 3rd gen protege for SSC has 325 front and 600 rear rates. I think that is way too high for a McPherson car, but I do see that they sure want that rear end to just be there to keep the bumper from scraping the ground!
I'll be sure to let you know. I also have a lot of Miata seat time, so your input is very valuable in comparing both.
I've seen that the SCCA trunk kit for the 2nd and 3rd gen protege for SSC has 325 front and 600 rear rates. I think that is way too high for a McPherson car, but I do see that they sure want that rear end to just be there to keep the bumper from scraping the ground!