ZG77_OzZ

When is the best time to start adding this to your engine?
3000, 6000?

Sil_Pro5

How's about NEVER!! Sorry for the smart arsed comment but....you honestly should NEVER use additives in your oil asd the oil co. do spend allot of time and research on the ones they use in their oil composition(s).

Your best bet is to use a synthetic or a base III oil like Castrol Syntec, Shell Rotella T synthetic, etc...

You can use Mobil 1 and get better benefits than from Prolong. Also, last I heard Prolong is or was being sued by the Fed. Gov't for false advertising.

Basic point here is: Nothing good comes cheap!

Sir Nuke

I actually found a WONDERFUL use for Prolong.....a few years back my computers power supply cooling fan sounded like the bearings were shot....it made all sorts or noise....so I replaced the power supply.....then six months later it started doing the same thing....so I removed it...took it apart...and found that the fan had bushings and not actual bearlings...and there was a nice little rubber plug that covered them up.....SO, I got some prolong...and a syringe and gave each one a few drops and PRESTO CHANGE-O....quiet as a church mouse!! and it ran great for about another 6 months...then I did the same thing...it ran like that for another 2 years till I built a new computer.... :{D

Oh yeah....I put it in my lawn mower too....but not my cars.

Traveler

Prolong probably has a bunch of uses around the house. Door hinges, casters, or anything with a bushing that needs a good film on it to work. But I don't think I'd ever put it in my car.

ZG77_OzZ

What is good , I all ways used just oil..Valvoline.
Thhey have a sythic too.

Sir Nuke

I DID in the computer that I built.....the first one was NOT of my build...in fact it was my first computer ever.

MDV Synthetics

Never wasn't a bad answer. Prolong was under investigation by the FTC and settled.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/9909/prolong.htm

More info on the adverse effects of additives can be found at http://www.mdvsynthetics.com/additives.htm

If you're going to spend the extra money on synthetic, you really should go for a Group IV basestock rather than the Group III. Castrol Syntec does not have a good track record according to independent analysis results I've seen.

ZG77_OzZ

WOW WOW

Sil_Pro5

MDV Synthetics:

Since I assume that your selling additives (which is cool), and are in the oil business technically, what independent labs ran these test(s)? Were they paid to do so? If so, then by whom? Also, many oil makers, like Amsoil, show all the tests in the world but, they never tell you the technical aspect of how exactly the test(s) relate to real-world situations.

I agre with you that a PAO based oil is great, but would you say that any synthetic oil with a PAO base is better than a base III oil? I would disagree w/ that totally as many companies claim to use PAO's in their sy. oils and they do-but, its just how much they use that begs to questions. MAny only use around 10% of the oil's total weight and the rest are what? Another 10% is an ester syn, then the additives account for another 10-15%. So, what's the rest? They dont say.

And additives people are a whole other ballgame in themselves. Do you know that almost always additives must have a 'carrier' fluid and its usually 'solvent refined paraffinic petroleum distillate'? That means regular cheap oil. MAny companies use PAO's as a means to simply increase the oils viscosity index and/or to help stabilise the oil. Shell's base III slack wax does the same thing as a PAO.

In fact, a Base III or YuBase6 oil has almost the exact or at times better properties than PAO 6. It almost just a s stable as PAO w/ the exception of pour point and that can be debated as to whether or not a pour point of -50 celsius for a PAO and one of -20 for a base III makes the oil better.

People, I dont work for anyone selling or making oils, i have just spent months researching everything about syn. and base II oils to draw my own conclusions w/out marketers and other b.s being flung into the consumers faces. In the end, I found that almost no oil, or syn. oil rather, that is sold in stores is a full and true synthetic. Period. Mobil 1 IS the closest that one can get to that old syn. definition. But does that make it better than say....Shell Helix Ultra (for our European friends who are reading)? Or how about Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40? Or, maybe even Castrol Syntec? Or even BMW's Synthetic oil that is made by CASTROL and at a 5W-30 viscosity it blows anything (stat wise and extended drain interval wise) out of the water and its not a complete and pure syntehtic! All of these oils use either a base III or a combo of a base III and an ester syn. to achieve their performance.

Base II/III oils are the purest petrol oils that can by made. They are clear and have highly saturated hydrocarbons that are in reality 're-arranged' in a better for to resemble a PAO-synthetic.

Point is, research everything for yourself before deciding on what 'sucks' or not. Read technical reports on the oils, ask for and read the oils MSDS to see the chemical composition (to a degree) and lastly, keep an open mind when doing so!

I used to be a blind follower of Mobil 1 but, not anymore. But the fact is, if you think that because Mobil 1 has a PAO base make-up that its price is somehow justified and thats why you buy it-youre sadly mistaken. And being ripped off. People say that oils like Castrol Syntec are ripping people off, well....yeah they are over-priced for sure. But if you think Mobil isnt raping you for a profit by selling you its Mobil 1, then Lord have mercy!

I am not going to say what oil(s) I use, but I can say that its not just one brand-thats for sure!

MDV Synthetics

I'm not really selling oil additives. I guess the closest thing to additives that I have would be the products like Octane Boost and fuel system cleaners. The oil and filter systems I have access to are not snake oil's by any stretch of the imagination.

Over on Maxima.org, we have started an oil analysis spreadsheet with many different cars, with varying mileages, environmental conditions, driving styles, oil types and drain intervals. The cars involved are not only Maxima's, the sheet is starting to grow with more and more makes involved. There are stock vehicles, cars with Nitrous and supercharged cars included in the study. The majority of the analysis reports came from the individual owners who submitted and paid for their samples to Blackstone Laboratories (http://www.blackstone-labs.com), which is an independent oil analysis lab with no affiliation whatsoever with Amsoil. The spreadsheet can be found at http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=100060 or http://www.mdvsynthetics.com/analysisintro.htm It is currently undergoing a major revision over the next few weeks with more cars being added to the list and many baseline samples of new oils as well.

This spreadsheet is where it was discovered that Castrol's Syntec series does not appear to hold up very long. Do I believe that Group IV based oils are better than Group III based oils? Yes. If I'm going to spend the money on a high quality synthetic oil, I want one of the best synthetics for my needs for my dollar. I don't see the need to change synthetic oil every 3K, so it's important for the oil I choose to be able to hold up under severe conditions for a longer period of time. My car is driven on roadcourse's and is flogged mercilessly so I want an oil that holds up over the long run and protects at very high oil temperatures. I've had analysis reports done after driving my car on the track and highway for 8K miles with both Amsoil and Mobil 1 5W-30. The reports indicate that Amsoil handled this "abuse" better than the Mobil 1 did. For the neglible price difference between the two, especially considering if you are a preferred customer or take advantage of the discount I'm offereing, I think Amsoil is the better choice.

You mentioned real world results. One of the properties of oil's is the NOACK volatility rating which measures the percent weight oil loses when it is subjected to 250 degree temperatures for one hour. Amsoil 10W-30 has a rating of 6.6% while Mobil 1 loses 14.98% of it's weight. How does this apply to you, you ask? Well, I have a customer with a Honda Prelude who burned 2 quarts of Mobil 1 every 7500 miles, which was his drain interval. He switched over to Amsoil and at 2K miles since he switched, he has reported no oil burning so far, where before he would be almost a quart down.

Even considering the different basestocks, one of the primary differences between oil's of different manufacturer's is the additive package in the oil. The functions of the additive system include anit-wear, anti-foam, corrosion protection, acid neutralization, maintenance of viscosity, detergency and dispersancy (http://www.mdvsynthetics.com/guides/functions.htm). Amsoil has a superior additive system compared to other oils and real world test results back this up. One of the big changes Mobil made with their Super-Syn was to the additive system, more specifically Phosphorus, which is for anti-wear. While this may be a big change for Mobil, they are still playing catch up to Amsoil. Does the differences in additives amount to very much over 3K? Not really, changing synthetic oil at 3K intervals is a waste of money IMO, though I'm perfectly happy to sell you some every 3K if that makes you sleep better at night

I'm not trying to say that Mobil, or other oils, are bad oils. They're not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm also not trying to say that Amsoil is a miracle oil, because it's not either. Do I believe that Amsoil is a cut above Mobil 1 and Castrol and worth the money compared to them? You bet. Just looking at my customer with the Honda, he SAVED money and got a better oil for his needs. If you wanted a high performance sports sedan and had 30K to spend, would you buy a Ford or a BMW?

BTW, you mentioned BMW synthetic was made by Castrol, but were you aware that it's not the same formula as Syntec?

Sil_Pro5

cant type long got my screamin 3mos. girl behind me vying for my attention...

yes i did know that the BMW syn. is not the same formula as castrol's syntec as it is made in Britain. also neither is Castrol Formula SLX 0W-30 or Castrol Formula SLX A1 0W-30. the latter is the fuel efficient type.

as for base IV oils? why would anyone, and I do mean ANYONE want to pay so much for and oil that only has 10% of PAO in it? Thats a rip! BTW, AMSOIL is not a base 4 oil. It's a base V, listed as a synthetic thats not PAO based. Base IV oils are only PAO based. AMSOIL is ester based.

MDV Synthetics

Hmmm... I didn't know about the SLX. I knew the BMW Synthetic wasn't Syntec, but I have yet to figure out exactly what it is.

I'm not really interested in picking a fight, but Amsoil's top tier synthetic oils ARE PAO based, I'm not sure where your information came from. Before anyone else brings it up, Amsoil's XL Series oils have been reformulated to meet the SL specs and are now Group III base stocks, and unlike Castrol, they have reduced the price accordingly. Do you believe that all Group IV, or Group III for that matter, are created equal. Personally, I don't really care what the makeup of the oil is semantics wise, I only care about the results and how it performs, whether it be 10% PAO's or 50% PAO's, or even ester based. I honestly don't know percentage wise what the makeup of Amsoil is, they consider that information proprietary, and I'm not going to make up numbers for a discussion. All I can do is point to the 30 years of history behind the company (which is longer than Mobil BTW in terms of synthetics), personal experiences, feedback from customer's and the real world independent analysis results.

Will I pay more for performance? Of course. Conventional oil would never hold up to my driving conditions the way Amsoil will. Even Mobil 1 showed signs of being overwhelmed for what I was asking of it. In the long run, the cost differences involved aren't that much, and you can even save money if you're willing to throw outdated thinking out the window and really use the advantages a synthetic oil can provide.

VaporTrails

Well, nobody else want's to ask, so I will. Would you change your mind and post which oils you do use? I'm in the midst of deciding whether to switch over to syns, and would be interested to know what you've settled on.

Also, one of the reasons considering the switch in my autos is I wanted something a little more "environment-friendly". The extended drain-intervals of synthetics is a big reason for wanting to switch, but I've heard accounts of people still changing their synthetic oil every 5k miles. What gives? I read something that AMSOil recommends draining every year (or something like 35k miles, whichever comes first), and changing the filter every 6 months (if you use the heavy-duty AMSOil brand filter, of course). What's the argument for changing more frequently in a passenger car?

Thanks --
Chris

MDV Synthetics

Amsoil's top tier motor oils are capable of a drain interval of 25K or one year. The Series 2000 0W-30 is capable of 35K or one year. If you use Amsoil's filters, they should be changed every 12,500 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first. However, it is NOT required to use Amsoil's filters. You can use an OEM filter if you would like, the only difference is that you must still change the filter at Mazda's recommended intervals.

All that being said, not everyone should be going 25K between oil changes. Your driving conditions and style will determine the safe drain interval for your vehicle. If you drive all short distances, especially in cold weather, the longest I would go an oil change would be 5K unless an oil analysis report could show that it was safe to continue. The more highway trips you drive, the longer your interval will be able to be. For highway trips, a drain interval of between 7500-10Kmiles would be a good place to start. I would strongly recommend that if you wished to extend the drain interval longer than that, you utilize at least one oil analysis report to ensure the oil is still suitable and to give you a guideline on how much longer it is serviceable under the conditions that you operate in.

An oil analysis report is not expensive and is well worth it. Since a car is a significant financial purchase and the stakes are high, I believe it is better to err on the side of caution rather than just blindly going 25-35K miles bewteen changes right off the bat. I hope this clears things up a little for you rather than the other way around.

MDV Synthetics

Good article, pretty much in line with what I've been saying. See, I'm not just making it up