kc5zom

Ford builds the best full size truck on the market? Did GM just somehow drop off the face of the planet? Because the Sierra and Silverado are better trucks hands down. Their midsize and compact vehicles suck but you cannot trash the full size vehicles. They have been as reliable or more reliable than the F-series for decades.

Kind of like the elections yesterday. Just because a bunch of people line up and buy your BS doesn't mean its better than the other guys.

And the S80 has been around for awhile in its current form. Before Ford even had a hand in Volvo. The S60 is the only car even close to showing Ford influence (and very little at that). So I'm wondering where you get off trashing a good car?

One more thing.... the first thing Ford did with Jaguar was to get rid of those unreliable old V12 engines. Jaguar has not had a new V12 since Ford took control. That is why the XJ220 bombed. It was supposed to have a V12, Ford took over and replaced it with a twin-turbo six. Instant suicide, lots of those still sitting in a warehouse in the UK.

Davard

Wow, when did that happen? Tells you how much attention I pay to Ranger pickups. Or at least the 4-cyl variety. Funny that they finally got a respectable 4-cyl engine....From Mazda. Previous 4-cyl Rangers were underwhelming at best, although they work pretty well for powering hydraulic pumps (I put one together for the '91 Cal Poly Rose Parade Float entry).

Silver5

you wait when that 6.0 powerstroke diesel for the F250 hit the streets boys and girls and that MACH1 with a hood shaker, my dealership will be packed w/ people wanting to buy these vehicles...that means big paycheck!!!!

just opened a cold one....ahhhh

cjb200

Okay, you got me on that one. My point was that the current generation MPV (2000-present) never used a Mazda K-series engine, and that it originally had a 2.5 Duratec and now has a 3.0 Duratec.

I just assumed the 2.5 was the same as the one in the Contour, and the 3.0 from the Taurus, Escape, Tribute, etc.

ProtegeMaster

The Volvo S80 yields the worst possible reliability you can find in a vehicle. THAT’S where I “get off” trashing a “good” car. If you care nothing about getting ripped off by poor quality, be my guest, go ahead and love such a vehicle.

Regarding Toyota, their association with GM has indeed been despicable, but only because it taints Toyota to be involved with a company such as GM, which I consider on par with the likes of paltry Ford. The reasons for this association I believe to be, one, because Toyota is providing humanitarian relief for GM-- GM was getting their *** kicked in the 80’s and Toyota didn’t want an image of having been the one to destroy an American manufacturer; especially given that Toyota relies on U.S. good relations to do well in their own business and sell their vehicles in this country. Secondly, it provided Toyota with comparatively cheap, pre-built manufacturing facilities in the United States.

And regarding quality, despite what naysayers wish to spout, the newer Chevy Nova and Geo/Chevrolet Prizm were *excellent* cars in terms of reliability, and the reason for that was solely because of Toyota’s involvement. Further, out of *17* vehicles consisting of Toyota’s ENTIRE line up, there is only one (1) that delivers reliability lower than ‘better than average’; the RAV4, which is Average in reliability. You don't EVEN want to try and compare pathetic Ford to Toyota's across the board quality. Such a comparison is utterly, utterly laughable. And trying to compare Mazda designed vehicles vs. Ford's (which includes the crappy Tribute)? Again, there's no comparison. Ford is left behind.

Regarding responsibility? Toyota was the first to mass produce a hybrid vehicle, and last month they announced their plans to make their ENTIRE fleet of offered vehicles hybrids in the next 10 years.

THAT’S what an honorable company does. They provide consistent quality across their ENTIRE product line, and they acknowledge their responsibility in working to produce efficient, less polluting transportation. THAT’S Toyota.

Question: Is Ford selling even a hybrid vehicle? Gee, let's see, that would be, NO. Do you think, as a "sales leader in the world" they might have the resources to build and sell a responsible vehicle? Yes. Do they? NO. How about GM? Even a hybrid? NO.

Mazda's association with Ford is shameful, if quite admittedly necessary to survive.

Shove that in YOUR pipe and smoke it.

Mustang

ProtegeMaster and all of you other naive people... you thoughts and opinions are based on heresay not fact. I am not saying that Ford Motor Company (FMC) is #1 when it comes to quality. Fact is Honda and Toyota do better in quality than any other domestic manufacturer according to J.D. Power Initial Quality Studies. But does that mean that FMC is pure garbage? NO, that is not a fair assessment. I agree that Ford has suffered in the past couple of years in terms of their quality with several recalls and some other annoying issues. But, let me tell you that things are on a complete rebound, and you will see the results in subsequent J.D. Power studies. For those of you that are not familiar with J.D Power, they are the industry standard when it comes to test of quality across all automobile manufacturers.

Now that let's move on to the facts. From an Oct 8/2002 press release, J.D. Power presented it's APEAL rankings. The 2002 APEAL Study is based on responses from more than 117,800 new-vehicle owners and comprises eight specific areas of vehicle performance and design that identify what consumers like and dislike about their new vehicles during the first 90 days of ownership. These areas are: vehicle exterior styling; engine and transmission; comfort and convenience; ride, handling and braking; seats; heating, ventilation and cooling; cockpit and instrument panel; and sound system. The study is in its seventh year. The results? see below:

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(http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/pre...asp?ID=2002105)

J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Three Highly Anticipated New Vehicles Top APEAL Rankings


Ford Motor Company Models Top Rankings in Five Segments

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: October 8, 2002


WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.-From one of the largest models on the market to one of the smallest, some highly anticipated new vehicles are succeeding in eliciting the kind of reaction automakers are seeking, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) StudySM released today.

The all-new MINI Cooper, Cadillac Escalade EXT and Ford Thunderbird capture top segment rankings in the study, which measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. In all, the study finds that 26 of the 31 all-new launches and redesigns meet or exceed the average performance of their respective segments.

"Radical designs and concepts are paying off," said Brian Walters, director of product research at J.D. Power and Associates. "Manufacturers that are willing to take bold risks with revolutionary concepts and bring them to fruition are creating new icons that are proving to be very popular."

Ford and Lincoln brands rank highest in five APEAL segments. American Honda, General Motors and Toyota Motor Sales brands each receive three top segment rankings.

"Ford's achievement is crowned by the Thunderbird's impressive debut," said Walters. "Along with topping the competitive entry luxury car segment in APEAL, the Thunderbird also ranked highest in its segment in our Initial Quality Study earlier this year. This is an exceptional achievement for a vehicle in its first year of production."

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I am not doubting that Toyota does consistently well in initial quality studies, but there are more to cars than just quality. Let's face it, Toyota's cars are BORING.... just look at their lineup. Corolla? Echo? Camry?... Great in terms of quality, but they have to emotion, no style, no pizazz... they're simply boxes on wheels. DO you really want to have a parent company like Toyota looking over Mazda? Do you think the MP3 or the Mazdaspeed or even the RX-8 would have evolved through Toyota's pipeline? Highly unlikely. It would also make absolutely no sense whatsoever to have Toyota in charge of Mazda since they are direct competitors with one another. That relationship would simply not work.

In terms of the right mix of automotive passion, style, value, performance, quality, and reliability, nothing can even come close to the brands and models that are currently under Ford Motor Company. I'm not just talking about the infamous "Blue Oval"... there's Jaguar, Aston, Land Rover, Mazda, Lincoln and Volvo too. Who can beat that?

As for the fellow who was talking about the GM trucks?.... well.. all I can tell you my friend is just talk to me in a year when a brand new F-series is launched. I just saw some pics of it today at a meeting and it's going to be unveiled at the Detroit autoshow. All I can say is.. WOW.. best in class performance, looks and a dynamite interior!

And keep in mind:
#1 selling car - Ford Focus
#1 selling SUV - Ford EXplorer
#1 selling pickup - Ford F-Series

There can't be that many stupid people around the world to buy Ford products if they all sucked!

So based on all these FACTS, would you guys really want Mazda looked after by any other company? I don't know about you, but definitely not me!

fossil boy

Opinion polls are exactly what their name implies: they are not facts.

Given proper marketing strategy and enough $$$, yes, people worldwide, are stupid and will buy anything... and worse yet, believe they have a good product, when in fact, they may not. Facts center about such issues as incidents of mechanical failure; calculated operation costs, correlations of injuries per accident, etc. JD Powers "polls" are worthless BS, based upon owner's impressions - remember, folks, we all filled one out for Mazda, within 1 or 2 months of purchase - way too early to determine, much if anything, regarding somethin as elusive as satisfaction..
And contrary to your suggestion that Ford's quality issues are of the last few years only, try since 1970...

Mustang

JD POWER studies do have significant merit and unlike what you say, there is empirical proof of data. If you look at the 2002 Initial Quality Survey (not the APEAL study) regarding Things Gone Wrong (TGW), Toyota Motor Corp cleans up in almost every category. And we all know that Toyota makes good quality vehicles. There must be some sort of correlation.

If you want more numbers (FACTS), all you got to do is ask!

macdaddyslomo

FORD is BUILING a HYBRID!!!! due to be released later next year...the hybrid Escape!!!The First Hybrid SUV!! Finally someone is going to make a desireable hybrid...I mean c'mon the Insight--can you say ugly...the Prius...uglier!!!put that in your pipe beeyatch!!!

Mustang

The PRIUS and INSIGHT are absolute garbage..... would never be seen driving one of those. I wonder why ProtegeMaster never bought a Toyota considering how much he loves them.

Identity_X

IMO......ford has to take care of their 'regular' cars first, then they could go into building a hybrid............

a ford hybrid is a bomb waiting to explode........one will surely Escape......................from earthly life

ProtegeMaster

This is cool-- I like heated discussion; especially when I'M right!

First off, J.D. Power is a favorite organization of auto makers (including Toyota), because they're an organization supported by the auto industry to try and counteract credible, honest consumer organizations who's sole purpose is the public's better protection (like Consumers Union). J.D. Power has NO worth in their existence-- They're a marketing company who's aim is to, A. Make a buck for itself, and B. Help those who pay them money for their information. They're a for profit company interested in selling to auto makers "studies" that show that particular auto maker in a good light, unbeholden to true reality. Period.
You'll never see any negative publicity regarding ANY vehicle they publish about. Ever.

Whenever someone wants to try and favorably portray an auto company they always whip out the old, transparent (at least to the educated) J.D. Power & Associates garbage. I find that organization worthless, self serving, and condescending to the public's well being. Here’s what it translates to, kiddies: They’re free from moral obligation.

And in terms of selling mass quantities of product serving as an indicator that it's of high quality:



The public has throughout history been easily fooled into nearly ANY kind of false or unthinkable pretense-- Historical examples of mass stupidity: The early years of IBM PC's-- They were totally inferior to Apple (no graphical user interface, etc.), yet they vastly outsold the Macintosh. **** Germany: An entire society was fooled into following a regime that represented inhumanity in the grandest scale, yet they were followed en masse. Please understand I'm not comparing Ford to ***** by any means; it's just an example of how entire societies can make stupid, even inhuman choices. The mass purchase of cheap, poor quality Ford vehicles is a classic example of success totally independent of quality. The bottom line is people can be shockingly stupid.

But common! Ford MUST be cool because that's what they say on TV, right?

J.D. Power... Fact? The very best they can claim is highly edited, focused, specialized information engineered to make anything look great. That's their job. They have nothing to do with reality in the full picture.

And now back to Toyota. I totally agree with some of your guys' points: Toyota DOES make boring vehicles. So does Honda, now. The Toyota Celica and MR2 are arguably cool, and many of their SUV's are cool, but passenger sedans and the like are boring. The Prius? Ugly; even heinous. *I* think, however, that quality is more important than superficial appearance. So is social/environmental responsibility. Ford has never led in ANY of these areas and I find them most patronizing based thereon. Same with GM.

macdaddyslomo

that's total bulldoodie...Ford was the Company that set the pace for raising fuel economy on Trucks/SUV's by pledging to raise average MPG on all Truck/SUV makes and models...as a matter of fact GM and Toyota were pissed about it....still no comments about how Toyota recalled almost 400,000 vehicles based on faulty brakes...yeah thats honorable.. ...lets put out vehicles when they have faulty brake lines...and Consumer Reports seems to like Ford just fine as far as reliability,so does Road and Track,and Car and Driver....but lets not listen to them...listen to Protegemaster...he knows it all

Mustang

What are you smoking ProtegeMaster?... you have yet to show us any facts about quality, you have yet to explain why you never purchased a totally robust Toyota vehicle.

Now, when it comes to social and environmental quality, you are really smoking some good **** here..... The Big 3 do more for the community and the environment than the other manufacturers. All you have to do is look on their websites and see what their doing.

As for social responsibility... well after Sept 11, who came running to help with vehicles and cash?... it was GM, Ford, and Chrysler.... no one else even came close to helping as much as they did.....

Also as an employee of Ford Motor, we are required to volunteer in the community at least 16 hours a year ON company time.... doesn't that tell you anything about corporate citizenship?

ProtegeMaster, this is a good debate, but I need you to show me some facts as opposed to your one-dimensional, ignorant opinions

kc5zom

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new F-Series coming out. Then the recalls will come. Lots of them. For some reason Ford just seems to love recalls. That and the shitty transmissions they put on the Taurus.

Just a little news flash of the obvious for you. Raising fuel economy is NOT environmentally conscious. The only thing environmentally conscious about raising fuel economy is that less crap gets burned through an exhaust system that could already be LEV or ULEV compliant. Sad how they make all these "special" vehicles to satisfy the California and New York market requirements but won't sell them elsewhere. Honda is the most environmentally conscious automaker out there. All of their vehicles are LEV or better.

Also there are severe statistical abnormalities to the ways both Consumer Union and JD Power collect their data. They cannot have a prayer of even releasing meaningful data the way they collect it.