firefly

I'll be installing my comp set this weekend and I need some ideas. SQ is a high priority but I won't be using any kick panels. I would also like to have the installation easily reversible so when it's time to sell my car I can just take the tweeter back without having holes all over my door panel.

Dave Cameron

You mention comp speakers, is this car to be used in SQ competition? SQ may not cost as much as SPL in hard dollars to build as a competition system but the installs are far more complex and cost time and thought! IF this is just for you listening we might get closer within the limits you are suggestting.
You are making this tough to the point of not likely by the constraints. The best SQ position is one that provides direct lines to the left and right ear, and that keep the distances on the right as close to the distances on the left. That as most always spells moving the drivers side slightly furthur away, and straighting both lines of transmission to the ears.
As a issue of time line and phase, it is best to NOT seperate the tweeters too far from the mids/bass speakers of a componenet set unless you can compensate individually for the time delays in of each individual driver.
Kick panels are the way one achieves this most of the time. Quickest, most direct, and most managible.
Next would come the doors, but with work. I have canted speakers on the lower part front doors, but it requires the stock hole and door face to go bye bye. Same with the tweeters. Component speakers by their nature will require the mounting of the tweeters somewhere, which will put holes in the doors. Best tweeter mounts on the doors will be slightly above the speakers, in exact same place door to door. Sorry but best results will be flush compared to surface mounted, as the dispersion patterns of the tweeters will do better on the surface.
The newest Proteges have a fairly tame tweeter installed in the sail plane of the car, the little corner of the front door that has the rearview windows. The location is far from ideal, too far from the main speaker, they are off axis, and point at each other, not the driver!
In my last protege (2001 LX) I installed Boston Acoustic speakers in the front and rear. The fronts had slight cant on the lower speakers, but not enough to require re-grilling the doors, flush mounted tweeters, and something unususal to BA, ambient tweeters on the sail planes. They sounded great to daily use, but would have had thier lunch eaten by anyone using basic focals in kickpanels.
My personal solution with the new protege (2004 Mazdaspeed, black) is that I have ordered two new front door interiors to gut out and carefully fit with the three ways I am installing for SQ. I have not competed in several years, but I am thinking of taking my daughter to Florida next year and compete in Springbreak, I figure it will take that long to build and tune the car right. Besides Allison wants to visit the mouse and the beach again!
A good SQ will have a clear front soundstage that extends from byond each window clear across the dash, and chest to head height.
I can't say I have helped here at all, but if I can help, drop me a line on private messageing. In turn please let folks here know what you decide on. As I said, I like SQ becuase it is the "
thinking mans" stereo competition, and it requires craftsmanship and thought to make an outstanding install. You may want to play about with the raw drivers sitting in the car to come up with a plan, it does help. For sure do that with the tweeters before sawing of screwing in! Use tape and spot install and move around for the best locations.
Good luck, and let us all know!!

1st MP3 in NH

Dave how much did door skins cost you?

Dave Cameron

Dont die at this please!
It is one of the few advantages of being a litigator, being a widower, having saved all the time I was in the military, and now being a combat based disabled vet is I have fairly decent cash flow.
For a new Mazdaspeed, look at between 375 and 475 per door panel. Order a pair, get a symbolic discount!
I got a little better deal, but my local Mazda dealer and I know each other, and I figure the maintenance and upgrade work I have had done on the RX-7 at his shop alone has put one of his kids though school.
I remind him of my patron saint status every chance I get. It helps too I have represented his daughter in a legal matter gratis.
I suspect on a older car, finding a parts yard jewel would be the best bet.

hihoslva

Since the tweeters DO need to be mounted somehow, finding a location without making holes is just about impossible.

You really need to consider how long you will own the car, and if the tweeters will go with it when you sell it.

I put my tweets in the doors, close to the mids, as you can see here:



The staging and imaging is pretty good, though I'd like to somehow get the soundstage higher. Overall, though - I'm very happy, and the install is very clean, as you can see.

I personally am not concerned about returning the car to stock shape when it comes time to sell it. I chucked the stock speakers, and sold the stock CD player. I'll have 1-1/2" holes in the door panels if I take the tweets out. But who cares? As far as I am concerned, most of the stereo equipment (maybe not amps or subs) will be sold with the car when the time comes.

If you enjoy working on your car and installing stuff, you'll want an all-new setup for your next car anyway.

Now - if you are leasing or REALLY care about not putting holes everywhere, stick the tweets in the sail panels Dave Cameron mentioned above. - the triangle little panels in the window corners by the mirrors. They pop out easily, and are cheap to replace - my first install had the tweets there, and replacing them only cost me about $20 I think. It might not be the best place for keeping your sound-sources together, but it is probably the easiest and cheapest to return to stock if you need to.

~HH

Dave Cameron

Hihoslva is showing you what I would have to say is the best compromise location for components in his install. With tweeters that can be angled like his, this is about as good as it gets on a Protege short of seriously reworking the doors! (Nice photo!)

pr5owner

mines on a plate, my tweeter is on a swivle mount so i can aim it where ever i choose,

firefly

I know most of you will disagree with me here because from what I've read CDT tweets are considered to be on the mellow side. I just installed my CDT CL-61 today and the first thing I noticed is female vocals sounds a bit harsh compare to what I had before (Just some Infinity Reference Coax).

I have the XO set at 0dB, tweets are the newer CDT-10 1" silk and they are flush mounted low on the door panel (close to the mid bass). Do they require some break-in time? Or did I do something wrong?

This is my setup...from HU to Sub.










Update on the harshness: I've set the tweet to -3dB. Most of the harshness is gone but I'm still getting a bit of S. Right now the sound is a little bit dull, not as lively and musical as before. I'm not sure whether this is a good tradeoff. I would like to have the musical sound I had before but I can't really stand a harsh tweet.

Verdict: Still no where close to my B&W 805 and MF A3 setup at home.

hihoslva

You do have a couple more options with your tweeters.

You can wire them back at 0 dB, but wire them out of phase, or reversed polarity. Swap the pos. and neg. wires and see how you like it. I have read numerous times that this can be a great way to tone down harsh tweeters without losing too much of the detail. And it is totally safe for the tweeters - you won't do any damage to them by wiring them reversed.

This, along with some adjustments to the treble settings on your deck might help you out.

Also - I'm not very familiar with the Alpine you have, but if you are not that familiar with its adjustments, read your manual and see what kind of flexibility you have. Alpine is a good deck, and you might have more adjustability in the EQ section than you are taking advantage of.

Keep fiddling - you'll find something you're happy with.

~HH

firefly

Hmmm...another guy told me to wire them out of phase. But the weird thing is he suggested me to do so on one of the tweeters...but not both.

hihoslva

Actually, I think the terminology should be cleared up.

Okay - if you switch the pos and neg wiring, that would be reversing the polarity. Now, if you do that to just ONE of the tweeters, the PAIR would now be wired out of phase.

I'm pretty sure these terms are correct - I know even I interchanged them earlier.

Anyway - wiring a pair of speakers out of phase can do lots of things, but most of them have to do with the stereo separation and cancellation issues. Sometimes, certain speakers send out sound waves that cancel each other, so that some frequencies are diminished or almost disappear. Wiring ONE speaker in reverse can help this issue. It can also lessen the output of that speaker to a small degree, which can help to "centralize" the image from the system. Because you sit on the left side of the car while driving, sound systems rarely are well balanced from left to right. Wiring one speaker out of phase is just another way of trying to get the true left/right balance to the driver's seat, especially if your deck doesn't have all sorts of time-alignment functions and what not.

Anyway - wiring the tweeters in reverse (BOTH of 'em) is just a method of reducing the harshness. Give it a shot - might be just what you're looking for.

~HH

JAC

So the best location without getting kickpanels would be in the door panels close to the mids?

I was thinking about putting them on the sail panels but I'm concerned about SQ (my main goal), I knew they should as be cose to the mids as possible but I'm a litle hesitant about making holes in my doors, how hard is it and how do you do it?

firefly

That's what I heard from most ppl. By keeping the tweeters close to your mids you're less likely to run into alignment issues. So the highs will blend together nicely with the lows. It sounds really nice and stage is amazing (CDT speakers are very good at this I heard) if the harshness aren't there.

I used those hole bits...those that you use to drill holes on doors when putting in a new ****. Works out nicely for me.

walight01

its actually EXTREMELY easy to cut the holes in the doors. goto your local hardware store and buy one of these that is the same size as the flush mount hole, this will give you a perfect circle and have a lip for the flush mount to stick on.

hihoslva

walight01 has it right - that's the hole saw to use.

Unless you might need it in the future, get the CHEAPEST one you can. You're only cutting thru plastic, so you don't need a real good one. Check the documentation that came with your tweeters to find out what size to use.

Go slow so you don't melt the plastic, and you'll be all set.

~HH