What have you done to your 3rd Gen today?
September-14th-2007, 07:06 PM
#1427
Scooty Puff Sr.: The Doombringer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
Posts: 642
Rear only is VERY balanced.
The front bar is actually a bit too much. A lot of the autocrossers that have tried beef AWR rears and MSP fronts actually switched back to the stock front. Understeer FTL.
Also, it's an ENORMOUS pain in the *** (gotta disconnect the steering column from the rack, drop the front crossmember, etc) to change the front. Ask Kansei
I'm on Illuminas set 3/4, MSP springs w/ the MSP rear bar and endlinks. It's SERIOUSLY neutral. Very tossable.
The front bar is actually a bit too much. A lot of the autocrossers that have tried beef AWR rears and MSP fronts actually switched back to the stock front. Understeer FTL.
Also, it's an ENORMOUS pain in the *** (gotta disconnect the steering column from the rack, drop the front crossmember, etc) to change the front. Ask Kansei
I'm on Illuminas set 3/4, MSP springs w/ the MSP rear bar and endlinks. It's SERIOUSLY neutral. Very tossable.
September-14th-2007, 07:32 PM
#1429
Tech/How-To/Northeast Mod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,517
well the rear motor mount is gonna have to come off for the subframe to fall away from the column.
I'm still not seeing how it could fall away though. I have every bolt off the subframe except for the two where the steering column attaches to the rest of the steering linkage. For that to work I'd have to unbolt the steering arms (rods.. whatever they're called) from the wheel hub area.. and then I'd be taking the steering linkage down with the subframe, and I'd have to disconnect the power steering fluid lines for it to go anywhere.
--- big time gap here ---
The car is completely back together now. I had a lot of fun getting the bolt through to re-attach the gear select rod.. 24" pry bar did the trick lol
I'm still not seeing how it could fall away though. I have every bolt off the subframe except for the two where the steering column attaches to the rest of the steering linkage. For that to work I'd have to unbolt the steering arms (rods.. whatever they're called) from the wheel hub area.. and then I'd be taking the steering linkage down with the subframe, and I'd have to disconnect the power steering fluid lines for it to go anywhere.
--- big time gap here ---
The car is completely back together now. I had a lot of fun getting the bolt through to re-attach the gear select rod.. 24" pry bar did the trick lol
Last edited by _Kansei_; September-14th-2007 at 07:39 PM.
September-14th-2007, 08:28 PM
#1431
Tech/How-To/Northeast Mod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,517
Sorta.. people expect a FWD car to understeer quite a bit at the limit, so the bars were designed with that in mind.
stock P5 front bar and MSP rear bar is really more balanced than oversteer.
My car would only oversteer in the rain.
Right now it oversteers at the slightest hint of a corner lol
stock P5 front bar and MSP rear bar is really more balanced than oversteer.
My car would only oversteer in the rain.
Right now it oversteers at the slightest hint of a corner lol
September-14th-2007, 09:26 PM
#1432
Scooty Puff Sr.: The Doombringer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
Posts: 642
You know what, since you've asked this over and over again, and you always get the same answer, then if that's the answer you're looking for, then yes. It will make the car oversteer.
Last edited by aMaff; September-14th-2007 at 09:30 PM.
September-14th-2007, 10:08 PM
#1433
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rockland, Maryville
Posts: 837
Dude, save your hostility for protege5.com.
J, a stiffer rear bar will shift the handling balance away from understeer and toward oversteer. The question is how much. That's what's difficult to answer, especially over the internet. And the answer will be different depending on your other suspension components as well as road and weather conditions. Most people (not pointing any fingers!
) say adding the MSP rear bar makes the car great because with it they can finally slide the car around corners. While fun, this is not the fastest way around a corner.
Also, there's more to it than just the sway bars. Stiffer rear springs will also have the same affect on handling balance. Andrew's MSP front springs are 20% stiffer than stock, but his rear springs are only 10% stiffer, so with springs alone his car probably understeers more than stock. Add the rear sway and he's achieved a balance he appears happy with. But he lives in GA where there's no winter elements to deal with. The story may be different with your Tokico springs.
It's best to do things one at a time. Do the springs and struts and play with the car to see what the difference is and what you want to change. You may feel sways are unnecessary at that point. I've studied a lot of the theory but in the end it's very empirical. Asking experienced members questions is the best way to get a feel for things before actually trying them yourself.
Let's keep this channel open, shall we?
J, a stiffer rear bar will shift the handling balance away from understeer and toward oversteer. The question is how much. That's what's difficult to answer, especially over the internet. And the answer will be different depending on your other suspension components as well as road and weather conditions. Most people (not pointing any fingers!
) say adding the MSP rear bar makes the car great because with it they can finally slide the car around corners. While fun, this is not the fastest way around a corner. Also, there's more to it than just the sway bars. Stiffer rear springs will also have the same affect on handling balance. Andrew's MSP front springs are 20% stiffer than stock, but his rear springs are only 10% stiffer, so with springs alone his car probably understeers more than stock. Add the rear sway and he's achieved a balance he appears happy with. But he lives in GA where there's no winter elements to deal with. The story may be different with your Tokico springs.
It's best to do things one at a time. Do the springs and struts and play with the car to see what the difference is and what you want to change. You may feel sways are unnecessary at that point. I've studied a lot of the theory but in the end it's very empirical. Asking experienced members questions is the best way to get a feel for things before actually trying them yourself.
Let's keep this channel open, shall we?
Last edited by JoshP5; September-14th-2007 at 10:13 PM.
September-14th-2007, 11:02 PM
#1434
Tech/How-To/Northeast Mod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,517
That's what we're all here for, no?
The MSP bar alone doesn't let you 'slide around corners'.. the only time my car has ever been prone to oversteer was pretty extreme.. autocrossing on concrete, in the rain.
So at least on my spring/strut setup (s-tech and tokico hp) the MSP sway bar does not at all induce oversteer under any reasonable driving conditions.
The MSP bar alone doesn't let you 'slide around corners'.. the only time my car has ever been prone to oversteer was pretty extreme.. autocrossing on concrete, in the rain.
So at least on my spring/strut setup (s-tech and tokico hp) the MSP sway bar does not at all induce oversteer under any reasonable driving conditions.
September-14th-2007, 11:46 PM
#1436
Tech/How-To/Northeast Mod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,517
The issue is we all have such varied suspension setups that.. it is just really hard to say how something like a sway bar will affect the dynamics of the car.
but I'm pretty sure that was your point
but I'm pretty sure that was your point
September-15th-2007, 12:02 AM
#1437
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 1,332
Awesome, I don't think I've ever heard it explained so well. I also dont ever remember asking about it before.
Ever. I don't know what's with a certain person's hostility. Didn't see any harm in asking for a detailed explaination.
I think I'll do the springs and struts, and put the rear bar only to start.
Since I have to chop my current endlinks off anyways, I may as well put the RB bar in. It's a waste of money to buy the stock endlinks and put the stock sway back on I think.
I'll save the front bar for a 'maybe'. I get alot of snow and ice up here, so oversteer is very unwanted.
If I find my tail going out, even a little bit, I'll save the front bar until then.
Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought it was 'bigger = better' for sways.
Suspension is quickly becoming my favorite part of modding this car. So many variables and fun to be had
Ever. I don't know what's with a certain person's hostility. Didn't see any harm in asking for a detailed explaination.
I think I'll do the springs and struts, and put the rear bar only to start.
Since I have to chop my current endlinks off anyways, I may as well put the RB bar in. It's a waste of money to buy the stock endlinks and put the stock sway back on I think.
I'll save the front bar for a 'maybe'. I get alot of snow and ice up here, so oversteer is very unwanted.
If I find my tail going out, even a little bit, I'll save the front bar until then.
Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought it was 'bigger = better' for sways.
Suspension is quickly becoming my favorite part of modding this car. So many variables and fun to be had
Last edited by J-Protege; September-15th-2007 at 12:07 AM.
September-15th-2007, 09:07 AM
#1438
Tech/How-To/Northeast Mod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,517
Yeah it's a totally different world than engines. Engines are so simple by comparison: Does it make it faster, or does it have no effect? Does it give more power down low, or up high? Does it make it louder or not?
Plus engines work is way easier to choose, because the manufacturers can plop down a dyno chart to show you some gain that you may (or typically won't) feel. Any person selling a suspension component, whether it be struts, springs, sway bars, bushings, reinforcement bars, will just say "Buy this to make your car handle better", or for springs specifically "lowers your center of gravity to increase handling".
While that's out there, the suspension geometry of our cars suffers the lower you go. Basically, right around MSP ride height is ideal (especially in the rear), as much as we'd all like to reduce wheelgap by going lower. Of course, many of us do go much lower for numerous reasons, typically because we want stiffer springs than the MSP ones (for some reason.. because stiffer does not equal better), or because we are vain and want to eliminate awkward looking wheel gap that we get when we get larger wheels and violate the generally-accepted aesthetic ratio between sidewall height and wheel gap (1:1 btw).
Lower, stiffer springs do make you feel like the car handles better, if only because they nearly eliminate the suspension alltogether. They reduce travel significantly just due to the ride height change, but then are also much stiffer. Our rear suspension geometry has built-in passive rear wheel steering, which operates throughout the range of suspension travel in the rear. Lessening the suspension travel by lowering directly reduces (or nearly eliminates) that rear wheel steering.
A great way to gauge where the ideal ride height is to see where various race car drivers set it, as they of course have tested various positions throughout hundreds of hours on the track. I actually discussed this with Tom Bork (driver of the Doc B Racing Protege) when I went to his house to sell him my CF hood (it's 10 minutes from here), and that's what pushed me to get the Tein S-techs, which RAISED my rear ride height by over an inch. Here's his car btw (couldn't find a good pic showing the ride height while not in motion):
Plus engines work is way easier to choose, because the manufacturers can plop down a dyno chart to show you some gain that you may (or typically won't) feel. Any person selling a suspension component, whether it be struts, springs, sway bars, bushings, reinforcement bars, will just say "Buy this to make your car handle better", or for springs specifically "lowers your center of gravity to increase handling".
While that's out there, the suspension geometry of our cars suffers the lower you go. Basically, right around MSP ride height is ideal (especially in the rear), as much as we'd all like to reduce wheelgap by going lower. Of course, many of us do go much lower for numerous reasons, typically because we want stiffer springs than the MSP ones (for some reason.. because stiffer does not equal better), or because we are vain and want to eliminate awkward looking wheel gap that we get when we get larger wheels and violate the generally-accepted aesthetic ratio between sidewall height and wheel gap (1:1 btw).
Lower, stiffer springs do make you feel like the car handles better, if only because they nearly eliminate the suspension alltogether. They reduce travel significantly just due to the ride height change, but then are also much stiffer. Our rear suspension geometry has built-in passive rear wheel steering, which operates throughout the range of suspension travel in the rear. Lessening the suspension travel by lowering directly reduces (or nearly eliminates) that rear wheel steering.
A great way to gauge where the ideal ride height is to see where various race car drivers set it, as they of course have tested various positions throughout hundreds of hours on the track. I actually discussed this with Tom Bork (driver of the Doc B Racing Protege) when I went to his house to sell him my CF hood (it's 10 minutes from here), and that's what pushed me to get the Tein S-techs, which RAISED my rear ride height by over an inch. Here's his car btw (couldn't find a good pic showing the ride height while not in motion):
Last edited by _Kansei_; September-15th-2007 at 09:12 AM.
September-15th-2007, 10:10 AM
#1440
Tech/How-To/Northeast Mod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,517
so far today? I jacked it up and did more investigating to figure out how to conquer the front sway bar bushing brackets.
I have a couple plans:
1. find a much larger C clamp (6 inches or so.. my 4.5ish inch one isn't large enough to clamp over the subframe and reach where the clamps currently are) to squeeze the bushing brackets into their normal shape.
2. order new brackets, and have them sent to my dad.. have him machine ones that are the same specs but with heavy duty HINGES. It's what mazda should have done from the factory. Without removing a single piece from the car (not even that lower brace) you can take a wrench and unbolt one side of each bracket.. if it was hinged, you could hinge it open, give the sway bar a shove, and pull the old bushings off. Slap new ones on, get the bar back into proper position, hinge it down, and bolt.
a 6.5 hours of labor job becomes a 10 minute job. Only problem is, you have to go through the 6.5 hours of labor to install the new brackets, but you'll never have to do it again
I have a couple plans:
1. find a much larger C clamp (6 inches or so.. my 4.5ish inch one isn't large enough to clamp over the subframe and reach where the clamps currently are) to squeeze the bushing brackets into their normal shape.
2. order new brackets, and have them sent to my dad.. have him machine ones that are the same specs but with heavy duty HINGES. It's what mazda should have done from the factory. Without removing a single piece from the car (not even that lower brace) you can take a wrench and unbolt one side of each bracket.. if it was hinged, you could hinge it open, give the sway bar a shove, and pull the old bushings off. Slap new ones on, get the bar back into proper position, hinge it down, and bolt.
a 6.5 hours of labor job becomes a 10 minute job. Only problem is, you have to go through the 6.5 hours of labor to install the new brackets, but you'll never have to do it again