Track Day Blues
July-20th-2004, 09:59 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 12
Track Day Blues
So the mighty MSP is neat & nimble on the street. No question about it.
At the track -- different story.
Some background:
First, despite its obvious sporty orientation, the MSP suffers from the same problem as other Protegés (and most sedans?): you cannot find race compound tires in the stock size (215/45/17). The 'competition' category at Tire Rack lists only one match -- the Pirelli PZero Corsa, which is a race compound tire in all sizes *except* 215/45/17 (treadwear 140). I tried them..... once.
If you want to run on stock rims, the only other choice is to increase the treadwidth to 225/45/17. This is acceptable with some tire brands but not others. Hoosiers, for example, tend to be much wider than the indicated treadwidth and will rub inside/outside fenders. So, I ultimately selected Avon Tech R's 225/45/17, treadlife 40.
At the track:
Willow Springs -- on Pirellis:
Definite and pronounced understeering in every turn. I ran out of track after turn 4 once, and could never touch the inside rumble strip on turn 5. I had to sacrifice these two for most of the day. At turn 9, I was always afraid of running out of pavement. I had to reduce my speed from 110 to maybe 80 - 90, and couldn't quite make it up on the straight. A yellow SRT-4 kept passing me in various places, and you can only imagine the humiliation. From everything I have read, the MSP should at least have had an advantage during cornering. Not so.
As for the tires -- after warming them up in the morning, I knew these tires weren't like the other PZeros. The '140 treadwear' designation didn't mean that Pirelli had finally figured out how to make a long-lasting race tire. It meant 'high-end street tire.' The outside tires cooked easily. The edge of the outside front tire had chunked off evenly by the end of the day. What a disappointment. Postmortem -- I looked online and discovered that Pirelli's in all other sizes have a treadwear of 60. I had no idea Pirelli had decided to use different compounds on a per size basis!
Overall, my best lap was 1:45, early in the day. I did some more research and bought Avon Tech R's for Thunderhill.
Thunderhill -- on Avon Tech R's:
This was the MSP's second chance. I finally had the right tires, and was eager to compare the MSP against my slightly-modified 2000 Protegé ES. I was feeling good; I know Thunderhill like my own back yard.
As usual, I spent the first two laps driving conservatively -- I was still getting acquainted with the MSP, and the tires were still cold. First lap, turn 3 -- the back suddenly breaks loose and I find myself sliding into the dirt. I couldn't believe it. I've never spun there before. Still driving conservatively, the rear broke loose again on lap two turn 10! (seen in the pic) Again, no warning.
Shell-shocked at this deplorable performance on a familiar track, I returned to the paddocks. What to do about the snap oversteer? I put 5mm spacers on the rear -- this seemed to make the car more controllable, but now the understeer I had experienced at Willow Springs came back. Even on race tires, I didn't have the same confidence during hard cornering. I have to say that, despite the clearly superior handling on the street, it was only its additional horsepower that pushed the MSP ahead of my 2000 Protegé. My lap times went down six seconds from 2:23 to 2:17. Pulling ahead on the straights could account for this alone.
I tried adding spacers to the front as well. Didn't help. I arrived at Thunderhill expecting to shut the door on Corvettes and Mustangs on the corners, and found myself afraid to pass off line for fear of losing control.
Thus far, I am quite disappointed. If my 2000 Protegé had 170 HP, it could easily have taken the MSP. Bummer.
The MSP has the superior setup, right? (shocks, springs, wheels, turbo, sway bars, the works).
2000 Protegé: SR Motorsports 21.5 mm rear swaybar, Injen cold air intake., 205/50/15 Kumho Victo's. That's it.
Other annoyances:
At Willow Springs, the MSP started overheating after just a few laps. I could barely finish my session without toasting the engine. At Thunderhill, which is a slower track, this problem wasn't pronounced, but evident if I shut the engine off right away after a session. Never had to worry about overheating with the 2000 ES. Bummer 2.
Once the engine is hot, there is a definite loss of turbo boost. The MSP wasn't pressing me back into the seat like it does on the street. Bummer 3.
Finally, the car doesn't seem to be geared properly. When running at high revs, the biggest turbo effect is felt right after 5000 RPM. Some upshifts drop the engine from 6500 to about 4000 / 4500 RPM, and you have to wait for it to wind up again.. Very annoying. Bummer 4.
The Big Question:
What's wrong with the Mazdaspeed setup?
On the street, the car faifthfully hugs the inside of many an entrance ramp, while nearly throwing the driver out the side window! But on the track.....
The car went from tight, graceful, and predictable on the street, to sluggish, capricious, and unpredictable.
Your turn.
At the track -- different story.
Some background:
First, despite its obvious sporty orientation, the MSP suffers from the same problem as other Protegés (and most sedans?): you cannot find race compound tires in the stock size (215/45/17). The 'competition' category at Tire Rack lists only one match -- the Pirelli PZero Corsa, which is a race compound tire in all sizes *except* 215/45/17 (treadwear 140). I tried them..... once.
If you want to run on stock rims, the only other choice is to increase the treadwidth to 225/45/17. This is acceptable with some tire brands but not others. Hoosiers, for example, tend to be much wider than the indicated treadwidth and will rub inside/outside fenders. So, I ultimately selected Avon Tech R's 225/45/17, treadlife 40.
At the track:
Willow Springs -- on Pirellis:
Definite and pronounced understeering in every turn. I ran out of track after turn 4 once, and could never touch the inside rumble strip on turn 5. I had to sacrifice these two for most of the day. At turn 9, I was always afraid of running out of pavement. I had to reduce my speed from 110 to maybe 80 - 90, and couldn't quite make it up on the straight. A yellow SRT-4 kept passing me in various places, and you can only imagine the humiliation. From everything I have read, the MSP should at least have had an advantage during cornering. Not so.
As for the tires -- after warming them up in the morning, I knew these tires weren't like the other PZeros. The '140 treadwear' designation didn't mean that Pirelli had finally figured out how to make a long-lasting race tire. It meant 'high-end street tire.' The outside tires cooked easily. The edge of the outside front tire had chunked off evenly by the end of the day. What a disappointment. Postmortem -- I looked online and discovered that Pirelli's in all other sizes have a treadwear of 60. I had no idea Pirelli had decided to use different compounds on a per size basis!
Overall, my best lap was 1:45, early in the day. I did some more research and bought Avon Tech R's for Thunderhill.
Thunderhill -- on Avon Tech R's:
This was the MSP's second chance. I finally had the right tires, and was eager to compare the MSP against my slightly-modified 2000 Protegé ES. I was feeling good; I know Thunderhill like my own back yard.
As usual, I spent the first two laps driving conservatively -- I was still getting acquainted with the MSP, and the tires were still cold. First lap, turn 3 -- the back suddenly breaks loose and I find myself sliding into the dirt. I couldn't believe it. I've never spun there before. Still driving conservatively, the rear broke loose again on lap two turn 10! (seen in the pic) Again, no warning.
Shell-shocked at this deplorable performance on a familiar track, I returned to the paddocks. What to do about the snap oversteer? I put 5mm spacers on the rear -- this seemed to make the car more controllable, but now the understeer I had experienced at Willow Springs came back. Even on race tires, I didn't have the same confidence during hard cornering. I have to say that, despite the clearly superior handling on the street, it was only its additional horsepower that pushed the MSP ahead of my 2000 Protegé. My lap times went down six seconds from 2:23 to 2:17. Pulling ahead on the straights could account for this alone.
I tried adding spacers to the front as well. Didn't help. I arrived at Thunderhill expecting to shut the door on Corvettes and Mustangs on the corners, and found myself afraid to pass off line for fear of losing control.
Thus far, I am quite disappointed. If my 2000 Protegé had 170 HP, it could easily have taken the MSP. Bummer.
The MSP has the superior setup, right? (shocks, springs, wheels, turbo, sway bars, the works).
2000 Protegé: SR Motorsports 21.5 mm rear swaybar, Injen cold air intake., 205/50/15 Kumho Victo's. That's it.
Other annoyances:
At Willow Springs, the MSP started overheating after just a few laps. I could barely finish my session without toasting the engine. At Thunderhill, which is a slower track, this problem wasn't pronounced, but evident if I shut the engine off right away after a session. Never had to worry about overheating with the 2000 ES. Bummer 2.
Once the engine is hot, there is a definite loss of turbo boost. The MSP wasn't pressing me back into the seat like it does on the street. Bummer 3.
Finally, the car doesn't seem to be geared properly. When running at high revs, the biggest turbo effect is felt right after 5000 RPM. Some upshifts drop the engine from 6500 to about 4000 / 4500 RPM, and you have to wait for it to wind up again.. Very annoying. Bummer 4.
The Big Question:
What's wrong with the Mazdaspeed setup?
On the street, the car faifthfully hugs the inside of many an entrance ramp, while nearly throwing the driver out the side window! But on the track.....
The car went from tight, graceful, and predictable on the street, to sluggish, capricious, and unpredictable.
Your turn.
July-21st-2004, 09:37 AM
#3
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
If I were you I'd buy some 16 steelie wheels with some ultra-low-profile sticky R-compounds and try it again. Also for added giggles you can buy a NX n-ter cooler kit and wire it up to a boostguage/solenoid to spray at full boost across your crummy intercooler. This will REALLY help with power loss.
My MSP was one of the best handling cars i've ever driven. I took turns at 65mph that would've had C5 vette off in a ditch. I love and swear by the MSP suspension setup...so much in fact I have it on my P5 now.
Maybe you should check the VENDOR section for "Kuuligan". He sells some chasis pieces that look GREAT and are very well priced.
My MSP was one of the best handling cars i've ever driven. I took turns at 65mph that would've had C5 vette off in a ditch. I love and swear by the MSP suspension setup...so much in fact I have it on my P5 now.
Maybe you should check the VENDOR section for "Kuuligan". He sells some chasis pieces that look GREAT and are very well priced.
July-21st-2004, 10:03 AM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Rockhill, MO
Posts: 706
personally I'd stay away from steelies, especially with the stresses that r-comps can put on them. I personally have broken steel wheels off of cars, tearing the metal of the wheel....therefore I will NEVER run steel wheels on anything I own again. Alloys are better suited for the stresses, strains and heat that are induced into a wheel on the track.
I run the tockico blue, mazdaspeed spring set up along with larger front and rear bars (racing beat 25/20) and camber bolts. I love it and find the rear to be entirely stable at all speeds and road conditions, unless I want it to step out.
I run the tockico blue, mazdaspeed spring set up along with larger front and rear bars (racing beat 25/20) and camber bolts. I love it and find the rear to be entirely stable at all speeds and road conditions, unless I want it to step out.
July-21st-2004, 08:41 PM
#7
Cone Dancer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Central Calif
Posts: 279
The gearing problem could just be an overall tire diameter situation. It's odd how different/stickier tires seem to change the entire handling balance of a given car. I have noticed, for me anyway, that the stickier the tire, the more of a push I'll have to deal with, whereas running on a "really good" street tire the car is a delight to toss araound. <sigh>
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