Long Post - 2.0 ES Rattle Limbo....
June-18th-2002, 12:39 AM
#1
Protege Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3
Long Post - 2.0 ES Rattle Limbo....
I wonder if this cold engine rattle is a bigger issue than Mazda is playing up to be?
Most timing issues are very harmful to the life of an engine. I think this dreaded cold engine rattle may cause excess carbon deposits and premature engine failure, early catalytic converter failure and possibly harmful stress and strain loading on the metal components due to improper spark timing and air/fuel mixture. Each one of these could be a future pain in the buttocks. The only way that I can see to get Mazda to rectify the situation is to complain. I don't mean yell and scream, I mean a professional looking letter stating your concerns and to also cc a copy to your states consumer complaints office or attorney general. I was told Mazda had a "repair" in April but recalled it because it did not meet the ULEV requirements. I wonder why they don't just replace ES 2.0 CPUs with MP3 CPUs. They probably don't want any false advertisement (horsepower loss) and I also wonder if they get a tax break for meeting ULEV requirement? I speculate that Mazda is in a major bind here; and can't fix the problem without raising false advertisement and legal issues. The longer we wait the easier it will be for them to claim "abuse and neglect." We probably won't notice any of the major problems until after the warranty is up. This is perfect for Mazda they can just wait for a few years and poof not their problem anymore. How long can it possibly take to remap a CPU. You can buy aftermarket ones. What a crock. If they cannot show that there will be no future problems as a direct result of this engineering flaw then I would like a free, new engine that is properly engineered, thank you very much. This means I may have to file for Lemon Law Arbitration (oh well). What do you all think? By the way, I wouldn't put any aftermarket products on your car (even though they are cool) that are not approved by the manufacturer or mess with the VCTS because I was told this would void the warranty.
The preceding paragraphs are only my opinion and I make no claim of accuracy to any of the statements.
Most timing issues are very harmful to the life of an engine. I think this dreaded cold engine rattle may cause excess carbon deposits and premature engine failure, early catalytic converter failure and possibly harmful stress and strain loading on the metal components due to improper spark timing and air/fuel mixture. Each one of these could be a future pain in the buttocks. The only way that I can see to get Mazda to rectify the situation is to complain. I don't mean yell and scream, I mean a professional looking letter stating your concerns and to also cc a copy to your states consumer complaints office or attorney general. I was told Mazda had a "repair" in April but recalled it because it did not meet the ULEV requirements. I wonder why they don't just replace ES 2.0 CPUs with MP3 CPUs. They probably don't want any false advertisement (horsepower loss) and I also wonder if they get a tax break for meeting ULEV requirement? I speculate that Mazda is in a major bind here; and can't fix the problem without raising false advertisement and legal issues. The longer we wait the easier it will be for them to claim "abuse and neglect." We probably won't notice any of the major problems until after the warranty is up. This is perfect for Mazda they can just wait for a few years and poof not their problem anymore. How long can it possibly take to remap a CPU. You can buy aftermarket ones. What a crock. If they cannot show that there will be no future problems as a direct result of this engineering flaw then I would like a free, new engine that is properly engineered, thank you very much. This means I may have to file for Lemon Law Arbitration (oh well). What do you all think? By the way, I wouldn't put any aftermarket products on your car (even though they are cool) that are not approved by the manufacturer or mess with the VCTS because I was told this would void the warranty.
The preceding paragraphs are only my opinion and I make no claim of accuracy to any of the statements.
June-18th-2002, 01:54 AM
#2
Demands Perfection
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 344
I Already Wrote A Letter
It's been no secret that I've had no reservations about publicly stating my areas of concern/dissatisfaction with our 2 litre Proteges (although for the money it's still a good car). In any event, to that effect I already wrote a formal letter to Mazda NAO on February 26 indicating that I was very unhappy about the engine rattling issue and the high RPM's that the engine is forced to run at slow highway speeds. It was written in my personal academic office letterhead with the intent of demonstrating the seriousness with which I've taken what I consider the poorer engineered elements of my car, and that I had no intention of simply accepting such things as inherent deficiencies that one should be content to deal with. I told them how exhaustively I researched the characteristics of the Protégé before my final purchase decision, that reliability has been, and always shall be, my primary contention, and in relation to my issues of concern, "It represents a shocking lack of refinement and attention to quality, and jeopardizes my confidence in Mazda as a reliable, conscientious auto manufacturer." [sic].
In no so many terms, I told them that if they didn't resolve these issues in either this or future models that I wouldn't even think about buying a Mazda again. Period. I insist on established quality and reliability and will never lower my high standards for anyone, for any reason. I'm a real hard *** when it comes to these things, guys, and I flat out will not tolerate ineptitude when tens of thousands of my hard earned dollars are being dropped on the line.
Anyway, despite my misgivings and areas of dissatisfaction, if they don't prove to be harmful to the car's reliability I well and true can cope with them, because in most every other area, for the money the Protégé is still an excellent car, comparatively speaking. You can be fully assured that I wouldn't have bought this car if it hadn't a long, well documented history of exceptional longevity and quality.
If, on the other hand, it turns out we've been burned by poor engineering on Mazda's part, and they've forwarded a concerted effort to weasel out of their responsibility based thereon, legal action is something many will surely consider.
I still am hopeful that it's nothing more than a harmless annoyance. That alone is enough to make one consider a different manufacturer the next time it comes to buy a new car, and should serve as motivation to fix anything that's a major problem to a customer. I'd expect the powers that be at Mazda are intelligent enough to figure that out.
In no so many terms, I told them that if they didn't resolve these issues in either this or future models that I wouldn't even think about buying a Mazda again. Period. I insist on established quality and reliability and will never lower my high standards for anyone, for any reason. I'm a real hard *** when it comes to these things, guys, and I flat out will not tolerate ineptitude when tens of thousands of my hard earned dollars are being dropped on the line.
Anyway, despite my misgivings and areas of dissatisfaction, if they don't prove to be harmful to the car's reliability I well and true can cope with them, because in most every other area, for the money the Protégé is still an excellent car, comparatively speaking. You can be fully assured that I wouldn't have bought this car if it hadn't a long, well documented history of exceptional longevity and quality.
If, on the other hand, it turns out we've been burned by poor engineering on Mazda's part, and they've forwarded a concerted effort to weasel out of their responsibility based thereon, legal action is something many will surely consider.
I still am hopeful that it's nothing more than a harmless annoyance. That alone is enough to make one consider a different manufacturer the next time it comes to buy a new car, and should serve as motivation to fix anything that's a major problem to a customer. I'd expect the powers that be at Mazda are intelligent enough to figure that out.
June-18th-2002, 09:35 AM
#3
Bruce Leroy
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 788
Does anybody have the .mp3 file that somebody recorded of the 2.0L cold engine rattle? I really don't think I have it, but it sounds like it should be affecting ALL 2.0L engines and I really want to listen to the sound again to make sure.
Mazda needs to get off their asses and fix this for their customers. Whether it's a safety issue or not, customer satisfaction is at stake and THAT should be enough to warrant some action on their part.
Mazda needs to get off their asses and fix this for their customers. Whether it's a safety issue or not, customer satisfaction is at stake and THAT should be enough to warrant some action on their part.
June-18th-2002, 11:55 AM
#5
WiCky=))
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 883
C'mon guys. If the cold engine rattle you guys are talking about does not adversely affect the engine's longitivity, performance, reliability etc. they do not have a obligation to fix this problem. i'm aware of this issue, but my Protege5 for some reason seems to not have this problem. Besides if it affected reliability and longetivity of the engine negatively, Mazda would have to pay of big bucks for repairs covered under warranty as a result of this issue.
As for the high highway rpms, it is really unavoidable since the the car is has tall gearing (Sorry if I'm confused with some of these transmission terms) to make up for the relative power deficit. Sure Mazda can make changes to the Protege5 so it cruises at 2000rpm at 60mph, but by doing so they either have to put in a 6 speed manual or a 5 speed auto which thereby increases the price of the vehicle, then people are going to complain it's too expensive etc. Or they can also make the gearing shorter, thereby also allowing a lower rev count at highway speeds, but the off the line accelearation will be hurt. Maybe a 0-60 in 12 seconds, and then people will complain its slow. My point is that there are trade offs to everything. If people want a vehicle that cruises at a near 2000k at 60mph, they can get a family car. The Protege IMO has a more sporting character, and the people who buy it should not mind the high revs at highway speeds. My friends Honda ITR wails at a high 4000rpm at 60 in top gear, but he nor others that own ITRs complain. It's like people saying the Protege's ride is too stiff. It's stiff for a reason. There are many cars out there, and people have choices, if they think the Protege doesn't suit them, then fine, they can always get another car.
Let's be realistic here. I paid so much for your car and I got a great deal. Which other cars in this class and price range, handle, look (IMO), brake, steer, etcetc like the Protege? Even if these problems are resolved people will always find additional stuff to complain about. I find the Protege extremely good already, sure it has its faults, but so do all cars out there, some which are much more serious that the Protege's. How do corroding brake drums sound?
And if people are still unconvinced, then they have choices and can always buy other cars.
As for the high highway rpms, it is really unavoidable since the the car is has tall gearing (Sorry if I'm confused with some of these transmission terms) to make up for the relative power deficit. Sure Mazda can make changes to the Protege5 so it cruises at 2000rpm at 60mph, but by doing so they either have to put in a 6 speed manual or a 5 speed auto which thereby increases the price of the vehicle, then people are going to complain it's too expensive etc. Or they can also make the gearing shorter, thereby also allowing a lower rev count at highway speeds, but the off the line accelearation will be hurt. Maybe a 0-60 in 12 seconds, and then people will complain its slow. My point is that there are trade offs to everything. If people want a vehicle that cruises at a near 2000k at 60mph, they can get a family car. The Protege IMO has a more sporting character, and the people who buy it should not mind the high revs at highway speeds. My friends Honda ITR wails at a high 4000rpm at 60 in top gear, but he nor others that own ITRs complain. It's like people saying the Protege's ride is too stiff. It's stiff for a reason. There are many cars out there, and people have choices, if they think the Protege doesn't suit them, then fine, they can always get another car.
Let's be realistic here. I paid so much for your car and I got a great deal. Which other cars in this class and price range, handle, look (IMO), brake, steer, etcetc like the Protege? Even if these problems are resolved people will always find additional stuff to complain about. I find the Protege extremely good already, sure it has its faults, but so do all cars out there, some which are much more serious that the Protege's. How do corroding brake drums sound?
And if people are still unconvinced, then they have choices and can always buy other cars.
June-18th-2002, 01:35 PM
#6
Protege Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3
You are absolutely right that if there is no longterm problems associated with the timing issue then it is just a nuisance. I would have no issue with that. The problem is, Mazda is not denying that there is going to be longterm problems associated with the rattle. This is not just a nuisance. I am glad that you do not hear the rattle in your P5. There are a huge amount of variables affecting the timing. I would not be surprised that your car has the same issues, but you just are not physically hearing them. I would be extremely surprised if your car was not affected by the problem. I would bet that every new protege meeting ULEV standards has this problem.
I agree that the protege is a great handler and would be a bargain if it was not for this oversight by Mazda. All cars have bugs and small issues, but this is an engineering vs. marketing issue and the consumer is stuck in the middle. They have the technical no how to repair and remedy the situation, but they need to balance that with false advertisement claims, government regulations and so on. Big picture; it all falls back to money and marketing.
I'll stop bugging you guy's with this and start posting less negative things. Thanks for the replies.
I agree that the protege is a great handler and would be a bargain if it was not for this oversight by Mazda. All cars have bugs and small issues, but this is an engineering vs. marketing issue and the consumer is stuck in the middle. They have the technical no how to repair and remedy the situation, but they need to balance that with false advertisement claims, government regulations and so on. Big picture; it all falls back to money and marketing.
I'll stop bugging you guy's with this and start posting less negative things. Thanks for the replies.
June-18th-2002, 03:10 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: central coast calif.
Posts: 260
it sounds like someone was up too lateup thinking about their car.
if that rattle does hurt anything (which i seriously doubt) it will get fixed under warranty or a service campain.
which one of you guys that are complaining the loudest about this problem are automotive engineers or even mechanics? if not then what qualifys you to think that you "know" there is a serious mechanical problem that the nhtsa or whomever needs to get involved in?
this 2.0 engine has been around for quite a while in the 626, if it had real mechanical issues they would have surfaced years ago. have a little faith in mazda and wait for a little while for the fix this annoyance.
if that rattle does hurt anything (which i seriously doubt) it will get fixed under warranty or a service campain.
which one of you guys that are complaining the loudest about this problem are automotive engineers or even mechanics? if not then what qualifys you to think that you "know" there is a serious mechanical problem that the nhtsa or whomever needs to get involved in?
this 2.0 engine has been around for quite a while in the 626, if it had real mechanical issues they would have surfaced years ago. have a little faith in mazda and wait for a little while for the fix this annoyance.
June-18th-2002, 03:50 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 77
Just want to state some of my opinions on this matter and on this car in general.
I came into this car from a 1999 VW Passat, V-6, 5 speed sedan. I bought it new for around $24,000. I am saying this with a straight face...this Protege is a great car for the money we spend for them!!!!! I had very little trouble with my Passat for the 3 years I owned it, however, with that said, I always felt like I was driving a time bomb, waiting for some electrical gremlin, or a major repair bill.
The Protege offers a lot more driving satisfaction than the typical Japanese car. It feels more like a hybrid between Japanese and European road manners. The faster you go, the more the car feels glued down to the road. You can't honestly say that about too many Japanese cars. Yet it has the reliability, fuel economy, and ease of use that Japanese cars are known for. This car feels solid, and corners better stock than my Passat with H&R OE Springs and Bilstein sport shocks. Granted, the Passat was a bigger car, but it is based on the Audi A4-A6 platform, not the same platform as the Golf/Jetta. It has a much better front suspension design than the Golf platform. The Passat was a great bargain, and I felt like I had a much better car than the other mid-size offerings. This is exactly how I feel about the Protege. I do think all around it is a better car than the rest of it's competition. Especially at the price we can get them for.
I also do not have the cold engine rattle, but I do feel for the people that have it. I remember the Probe/626/MX6 having a similar valve train noise on the 2.5 liter V-6 when it was cold, but I don't know of anybody that ever had a problem with the engine in the long term.
Trust me everyone, we have a great car, at any price, but especially at this price!
I came into this car from a 1999 VW Passat, V-6, 5 speed sedan. I bought it new for around $24,000. I am saying this with a straight face...this Protege is a great car for the money we spend for them!!!!! I had very little trouble with my Passat for the 3 years I owned it, however, with that said, I always felt like I was driving a time bomb, waiting for some electrical gremlin, or a major repair bill.
The Protege offers a lot more driving satisfaction than the typical Japanese car. It feels more like a hybrid between Japanese and European road manners. The faster you go, the more the car feels glued down to the road. You can't honestly say that about too many Japanese cars. Yet it has the reliability, fuel economy, and ease of use that Japanese cars are known for. This car feels solid, and corners better stock than my Passat with H&R OE Springs and Bilstein sport shocks. Granted, the Passat was a bigger car, but it is based on the Audi A4-A6 platform, not the same platform as the Golf/Jetta. It has a much better front suspension design than the Golf platform. The Passat was a great bargain, and I felt like I had a much better car than the other mid-size offerings. This is exactly how I feel about the Protege. I do think all around it is a better car than the rest of it's competition. Especially at the price we can get them for.
I also do not have the cold engine rattle, but I do feel for the people that have it. I remember the Probe/626/MX6 having a similar valve train noise on the 2.5 liter V-6 when it was cold, but I don't know of anybody that ever had a problem with the engine in the long term.
Trust me everyone, we have a great car, at any price, but especially at this price!
Last edited by KHH; June-18th-2002 at 03:52 PM.
June-18th-2002, 07:27 PM
#10
Certified Sick Individual
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Houston, TX.
Posts: 1,141
Originally posted by Tom Slick
this 2.0 engine has been around for quite a while in the 626, if it had real mechanical issues they would have surfaced years ago. have a little faith in mazda and wait for a little while for the fix this annoyance.
this 2.0 engine has been around for quite a while in the 626, if it had real mechanical issues they would have surfaced years ago. have a little faith in mazda and wait for a little while for the fix this annoyance.
June-18th-2002, 07:28 PM
#11
Certified Sick Individual
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Houston, TX.
Posts: 1,141
Originally posted by Ronin
I don't own a Protege, so I'm curious: what does your engine rev at on the highway? Say at 60 mph, and at 70 mph?
I don't own a Protege, so I'm curious: what does your engine rev at on the highway? Say at 60 mph, and at 70 mph?
June-19th-2002, 04:34 AM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: los angeles CA
Posts: 255
I don't own a Protege, so I'm curious: what does your engine rev at on the highway? Say at 60 mph, and at 70 mph?
at 85mph it is just under the 4000rpm mark in 5th gear
it reaches 90 just over 4000rpm
found this out just from my trip back from Vegas.
June-19th-2002, 10:29 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: central coast calif.
Posts: 260
Originally posted by kc5zom
This issue didn't come up until Mazda made the 2.0L ULEV compliant. So basically the 626 would not run into this issue.
This issue didn't come up until Mazda made the 2.0L ULEV compliant. So basically the 626 would not run into this issue.
June-19th-2002, 03:15 PM
#14
Show Layne some respect
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Long Island,NY
Posts: 2,458
Re: I Already Wrote A Letter
Originally posted by ProtegeMaster
that I was very unhappy about ..........the high RPM's that the engine is forced to run at slow highway speeds.
that I was very unhappy about ..........the high RPM's that the engine is forced to run at slow highway speeds.
While the engine rattle could absolutely come as a surprise to any P5 owner, the engine revs at highway speeds should not be shocking revelation once you buy the car. This is the way the car is engineered, and if you test drove a P5 before buying one - as I am sure you did - you are responsible for not recognizing this design "flaw". While the rattle may not have been audible, the RPMs are the same on the test car as on yours, and if it was acceptable then, there really is no basis for complaining now.
Not flaming by any means - but such a claim might tend to lessen the credibility of an otherwise well-written, purposeful complaint letter. Including the RPM issue IS a good idea - car companies need input and opinion in order to make their designs better and more appealing. But to include this issue as a complaint about reliability is trying to put a square peg in a round hole - it's not a reliability issue at all.
Just my $.02 - but I sincerely hope your letter can make a difference.
June-19th-2002, 10:30 PM
#15
Certified Sick Individual
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Houston, TX.
Posts: 1,141
Personally, I would have liked a taller first and fifth gear on my car. I say leave the others about the same. I don't really ever get fast enough where I am forced by redline to shift out of fourth. I want that fifth gear there for fuel economic cruising not for acceleration. Thats what a downshift is for.