Japanese Protege (familia)
January-10th-2002, 01:52 AM
#1
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Larchmont, NY
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Japanese Protege (familia)
I just came across the press news page on the mazda web site and the Japanese version has now come out with a sport 20 sedan. It has the mp5 front, side and rear skirt. Plus a modified suspension. If you'd like to take a look check out the Japan web site.
I also came across the Taiwan web site and they too have the similar model but called 323 protege 2.0. It's amazing! I feel cheated! You can get the a leather interior with power seats or recardo sport seats with woodgrain, a dvd navigation system and climate control. I don't need all that but some of it would be great in the U.S. I don't read taiwanese but I jut clicked on some of the words and the specs and accessories came up. I'd like to know your feelings on this because I contacted mazdausa and they just sent me a pdf of all performance accessories we can get here in the U.S.
I also came across the Taiwan web site and they too have the similar model but called 323 protege 2.0. It's amazing! I feel cheated! You can get the a leather interior with power seats or recardo sport seats with woodgrain, a dvd navigation system and climate control. I don't need all that but some of it would be great in the U.S. I don't read taiwanese but I jut clicked on some of the words and the specs and accessories came up. I'd like to know your feelings on this because I contacted mazdausa and they just sent me a pdf of all performance accessories we can get here in the U.S.
January-10th-2002, 03:06 AM
#2
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Join Date: Oct 2001
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sport20
Sorry, I've got some catching up to do. I was just trying to get some feedback on lack of accessories we get here in the states compared to the eastern market.
I do beg to differ on the taiwanese pictures though because they do show the same car as the new familia sport20 sedan in the 12/6 press news release but badged 323 protege 2.0. It shows the new dvd navigation system, leather recaro seats and a woodgran interior.
I do beg to differ on the taiwanese pictures though because they do show the same car as the new familia sport20 sedan in the 12/6 press news release but badged 323 protege 2.0. It shows the new dvd navigation system, leather recaro seats and a woodgran interior.
January-10th-2002, 08:11 PM
#3
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 160
P5 begs for DuratecHE 2.3 with VVT technology and around 160hp along with great fuel economy,very very smooth operation and flat as a ruler power band. This engine will feel like 180 hp engine due to it's great smoothness, (no vibration or loud strained sound when pushed) and flat power band.
This engine will be used in Mazda6 as a base engine and in next generation Focus (but without vvt technology producing about 145hp). This engine was designed and will be build by Ford and Mazda.
We can get a taste of this 2.3 duratec in it's more primitive version in 2002 Ford Ranger (but that engine is tuned to get tourqe first -155lbs/ft. and there is no vvt used there, but at least we can get a feeling of it's great smoothness)
Ford and Mazda are comming out with some great cars lately.
European Mondeo and Focus and Mazda6 and RX8.
Way to go.
This engine will be used in Mazda6 as a base engine and in next generation Focus (but without vvt technology producing about 145hp). This engine was designed and will be build by Ford and Mazda.
We can get a taste of this 2.3 duratec in it's more primitive version in 2002 Ford Ranger (but that engine is tuned to get tourqe first -155lbs/ft. and there is no vvt used there, but at least we can get a feeling of it's great smoothness)
Ford and Mazda are comming out with some great cars lately.
European Mondeo and Focus and Mazda6 and RX8.
Way to go.
January-10th-2002, 10:25 PM
#4
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It sounds like Ford is using Mazda for most of it's engineering work. Ford N.A is lazy and does not have any traditions in building qualtiy cars (Pick-ups,trucks are a different story)
But please don't tell me that Ford Europe (designing great cars as of late) is drawing it's ideas from Mazda.
2.3l engines will be build in the same factory and only difference between them will be heads and slight CPU changes to accomadate for S-VT technology.Those engines are based on the same new family of modern engines.Duratec HE engines are mostly Mazda's design and Ford will use it in many cars, trucks and SUV'S.
Mazda6 will borrow it's rear suspension from superb Ford Focus/Mondeo independent muilt-link design. That's what made Focus and Mondeo so great and universal in tight street handling and touring at the same time.
I think Mazda takes as much from Ford as Ford takes from Mazda
it looks like a good cooperation.
Next gen. Volvo V50 v40 (Golf/Jetta killer) will be based on the same Focus MKII suspension which is based on current Focus/Mondeo suspension.
The heart of those suspensions lays in superb rear multi-link fully independent suspension, designed by Ford Europe for Focus first and later used in Mondeo.
Let's get a little more objective.
But please don't tell me that Ford Europe (designing great cars as of late) is drawing it's ideas from Mazda.
2.3l engines will be build in the same factory and only difference between them will be heads and slight CPU changes to accomadate for S-VT technology.Those engines are based on the same new family of modern engines.Duratec HE engines are mostly Mazda's design and Ford will use it in many cars, trucks and SUV'S.
Mazda6 will borrow it's rear suspension from superb Ford Focus/Mondeo independent muilt-link design. That's what made Focus and Mondeo so great and universal in tight street handling and touring at the same time.
I think Mazda takes as much from Ford as Ford takes from Mazda
it looks like a good cooperation.
Next gen. Volvo V50 v40 (Golf/Jetta killer) will be based on the same Focus MKII suspension which is based on current Focus/Mondeo suspension.
The heart of those suspensions lays in superb rear multi-link fully independent suspension, designed by Ford Europe for Focus first and later used in Mondeo.
Let's get a little more objective.
January-11th-2002, 07:03 PM
#6
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Are you sayng that Ford Europe designed Focus in 1998 and used Mazda's suspension from 2003 in it?
The superb focus suspension based on multi link rear suspension (Focus, Mondeo) is all Ford.
Duratec HE engine is almost all Mazda, though.
So saying that Mazda will design next gen. suspension for Focus/Volvo/Mazda is not right, because Ford designed it in the first place, Mazda may borrow it and further enhance it.
I heard that Volvo and Mazda will all use next gen "Ford Focus suspension".
The superb focus suspension based on multi link rear suspension (Focus, Mondeo) is all Ford.
Duratec HE engine is almost all Mazda, though.
So saying that Mazda will design next gen. suspension for Focus/Volvo/Mazda is not right, because Ford designed it in the first place, Mazda may borrow it and further enhance it.
I heard that Volvo and Mazda will all use next gen "Ford Focus suspension".
January-11th-2002, 07:22 PM
#7
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 337
Not this stuff again...
I thought this was all in another thread??
On the side, do you think Ford will enter the new Mondeo in the BTCC?? It might liven up the action between the Vauxhals, Pugeots and what ever else appeared through the 2001 season.
Here is what I thought/heard/was told...Ford intially designed the new platform. Mazda took it and redesigned/did/ what ever to all the suspension to make it handle like a Mazda (read as better), and not like a Ford.
Yes the Focus is supposed to have a good suspension design, but the Protege is supposed to be a better design.
Just my thoughts/two cents/what ever its worth...
On the side, do you think Ford will enter the new Mondeo in the BTCC?? It might liven up the action between the Vauxhals, Pugeots and what ever else appeared through the 2001 season.
Here is what I thought/heard/was told...Ford intially designed the new platform. Mazda took it and redesigned/did/ what ever to all the suspension to make it handle like a Mazda (read as better), and not like a Ford.
Yes the Focus is supposed to have a good suspension design, but the Protege is supposed to be a better design.
Just my thoughts/two cents/what ever its worth...
January-11th-2002, 07:43 PM
#8
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Posts: 160
what do you mean by "better".
Yes, next generation Protege suspension will be better, but curent design is not as sofisticated as modern and innovative Focus suspension.
I'm driving P5 and I did drive two ZX3's, and P5's suspension feels tighter and stiffer (better cornering) but it does not have great confidence inspiring smoothness and fluidity that Focus has.
ZX3 is more stable and sure-footed when turning while hitting a path hole, it stays in it's course while stiff P5 is thrown off and steering have to quickly correct suspension's imperfection.
Thanks god P5 has great quick steering response so it is easy to quickly correct it. Also when turning on a long turn at about 50 mph Focus made the whole turn in one position of the steering wheel (without corrections)and P5 must be constantly corrected.
Please don't be biased. We must see what is good and what could have been better in our cars.
Our Protege would have been better with independent multi-link rear suspension (just like in Focus)
Yes, next generation Protege suspension will be better, but curent design is not as sofisticated as modern and innovative Focus suspension.
I'm driving P5 and I did drive two ZX3's, and P5's suspension feels tighter and stiffer (better cornering) but it does not have great confidence inspiring smoothness and fluidity that Focus has.
ZX3 is more stable and sure-footed when turning while hitting a path hole, it stays in it's course while stiff P5 is thrown off and steering have to quickly correct suspension's imperfection.
Thanks god P5 has great quick steering response so it is easy to quickly correct it. Also when turning on a long turn at about 50 mph Focus made the whole turn in one position of the steering wheel (without corrections)and P5 must be constantly corrected.
Please don't be biased. We must see what is good and what could have been better in our cars.
Our Protege would have been better with independent multi-link rear suspension (just like in Focus)
January-11th-2002, 09:27 PM
#9
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 160
Look at the rally racing, Focus and Peugeots are just dominating there. (Both use similiar rear suspension).
Rally and Track cars are heavily tweaked, but don't get me wrong Protege's suspension is very very good, but it's not as sofisticated as suspension on Focus.
I did choose P5 over Focus for Mazda'a steering precision, very good suspension, great assembly quality along with good resale value. Mazda bulid in Japan is better than N.A. build Focus in many ways. But also Focus will edge P5 in many categories.
I personally can't wait for next generation Protege, Mazda6,Focus, Volvo V50, all of those cars look like a winners.
Duratec He engines will be so much better in every way than current engines used by Mazda and Ford.
You have to know that Focus in it's european original does have much tighter and stiffer suspension than our N.American ZX3(typicaly american) but it still has great smoothness and confidence to it (all due to rear suspension).
European cars are all about handling and Focus won car of the year there mostly for it's superb handlig/steering precision, and it's all Ford Europe (England) design.
Look what car did win this year , Peugeot 307 small but amazingly handling car. I think if Ford N.A can allow Ford Europe engineers to fly we would have a differnt Fords here, not old and poorly assembled Taurus/Escort/ etc.
Mazda has similiar idea with it's early 90's 929 but that car was way too big and heavy to be a great handler, it sounds like it was one of the best touring cars ever buid though.
Rally and Track cars are heavily tweaked, but don't get me wrong Protege's suspension is very very good, but it's not as sofisticated as suspension on Focus.
I did choose P5 over Focus for Mazda'a steering precision, very good suspension, great assembly quality along with good resale value. Mazda bulid in Japan is better than N.A. build Focus in many ways. But also Focus will edge P5 in many categories.
I personally can't wait for next generation Protege, Mazda6,Focus, Volvo V50, all of those cars look like a winners.
Duratec He engines will be so much better in every way than current engines used by Mazda and Ford.
You have to know that Focus in it's european original does have much tighter and stiffer suspension than our N.American ZX3(typicaly american) but it still has great smoothness and confidence to it (all due to rear suspension).
European cars are all about handling and Focus won car of the year there mostly for it's superb handlig/steering precision, and it's all Ford Europe (England) design.
Look what car did win this year , Peugeot 307 small but amazingly handling car. I think if Ford N.A can allow Ford Europe engineers to fly we would have a differnt Fords here, not old and poorly assembled Taurus/Escort/ etc.
Mazda has similiar idea with it's early 90's 929 but that car was way too big and heavy to be a great handler, it sounds like it was one of the best touring cars ever buid though.
January-11th-2002, 10:06 PM
#10
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just to back it up, I some of my focaljet friends and:
quote from Rick
The Mazda 6 uses a design that Mazda came up with for the 929 Serenia, way back in the early 1990s.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
biker16:
Maybe the front suspention is but the Rear suspetion is based on the focus's control blade IRS.
IMO the signature of the Focus IRS is the one piece
stamping that mases up the trailing link and the hub carrier. Like the Focus the Mazda 6's IRS uses links uses only steel stampings without and cast or forged parts. cheap.
From the Mazda 6 press pack
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New e-type Multi-link Rear Suspension
Mazda 6's self-leveling e-type multi-link rear suspension has been designed with the same attention to detail for robust handling characteristics. Special emphasis was devoted to achieving a low-profile design that would contribute to Mazda 6's voluminous luggage compartment capacity.
Mazda engineers created an underfloor rear suspension system for the new Mazda that would not protrude into the luggage compartment. Typical rear suspension designs feature tall strut towers that compromise loading width in the rear.
The Mazda 6 rear suspension features low-profile springs and angled dampers that solve the package issue without compromising handling capabilities.
Mounted to a rigid subframe, the suspension system is characterized by its long suspension travel, its self-leveling capability and its compliance management.
I also did read the Mazda6 european review and it was clearly stated were Mazda took the idea from.
Ford Focus rear suspension.
:
quote from Rick
The Mazda 6 uses a design that Mazda came up with for the 929 Serenia, way back in the early 1990s.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
biker16:
Maybe the front suspention is but the Rear suspetion is based on the focus's control blade IRS.
IMO the signature of the Focus IRS is the one piece
stamping that mases up the trailing link and the hub carrier. Like the Focus the Mazda 6's IRS uses links uses only steel stampings without and cast or forged parts. cheap.
From the Mazda 6 press pack
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New e-type Multi-link Rear Suspension
Mazda 6's self-leveling e-type multi-link rear suspension has been designed with the same attention to detail for robust handling characteristics. Special emphasis was devoted to achieving a low-profile design that would contribute to Mazda 6's voluminous luggage compartment capacity.
Mazda engineers created an underfloor rear suspension system for the new Mazda that would not protrude into the luggage compartment. Typical rear suspension designs feature tall strut towers that compromise loading width in the rear.
The Mazda 6 rear suspension features low-profile springs and angled dampers that solve the package issue without compromising handling capabilities.
Mounted to a rigid subframe, the suspension system is characterized by its long suspension travel, its self-leveling capability and its compliance management.
I also did read the Mazda6 european review and it was clearly stated were Mazda took the idea from.
Ford Focus rear suspension.
:
January-11th-2002, 10:15 PM
#11
That's me!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 337
Just a thought...
Sometimes "more complicated" as in the Focus isn't better than "simpler" as in Protege.
Have you seen the Focus in the BTCC Production class?? It doesn't do as well as some other cars...Including against similarly classed Peugeots.
I thought the current Proteges were running TTL in the rear, which is similar to what Ford put in the Focus?? Don't hold me to that, I need to look at Focus info before I lock into that one.
Everybody has an opinion about the matter, I might be a little biased towards Ford. I drove a ZX3 as well, and wasn't as impressed with it as I was with the Portege 5.
As for the European spec suspension, I thought the SVT Focus was getting that set-up over the regular US set up.
Have you seen the Focus in the BTCC Production class?? It doesn't do as well as some other cars...Including against similarly classed Peugeots.
I thought the current Proteges were running TTL in the rear, which is similar to what Ford put in the Focus?? Don't hold me to that, I need to look at Focus info before I lock into that one.
Everybody has an opinion about the matter, I might be a little biased towards Ford. I drove a ZX3 as well, and wasn't as impressed with it as I was with the Portege 5.
As for the European spec suspension, I thought the SVT Focus was getting that set-up over the regular US set up.
January-11th-2002, 10:20 PM
#12
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 160
let's make it clear.
Mazda6 will use Ford to design it's chassis.
Here is an article from English press and great review of future to come in Mazda6:
quote:
Mazda 6
Lowly but surely, Mazda is reinventing itself, tapping into the creativity that brought us the popular MX-5 and storming RX-7 sports cars, and injecting it in its saloons.
The first demonstration of all this work is the stunning replacement for the 626 you see here. Christened simply the Mazda 6, the newcomer is set to rival the Volkswagen Passat, Ford Mondeo and Renault Laguna. Auto Express climbed behind the wheel first to bring you this world exclusive test of the car due on sale next summer.
Although our drive concentrated on the petrol-engined 2.3-litre five-door hatchback, saloon and estate versions will also be available. There is a wide choice of engines, as well, including 1.8 and 2.0-litre petrol units and a 2.0-litre common-rail diesel.
Prices are expected to start from £14,000 for the entry-level edition of the 1.8, rising to around £20,000 for the flagship 2.3-litre model
With an all-new platform, Mazda's Mondeo-sized car also has the advantage of being the latest demonstration of parent company Ford's expertise in chassis engineering. On the road, it did not seem that the 6 was about to disappoint. Not only did the suspension feel supple, and the steering precise, the engine impressed us, too. Our test car gave excellent throttle response from way down low in the rev range. The power delivery builds with engine speed, and the unit feels keener as it passes the 5,000rpm mark. Generating 163bhp at 6,500rpm and 207Nm of torque at 4,000rpm, the five-speed manual gearbox proved suited to the rev-happy engine, offering quick, precise changes. A four-speed automatic is also offered as a cost option on this car, while a five-speed self-shifter will be available on a Japan-only 3.0-litre V6 that will not go on sale in the UK.
On a more challenging road, the all-new self-levelling multi-link rear suspension system makes itself felt. Although described by Mazda engineers as a revolutionary set-up, the system owes a great deal to the 'control blade' arrangement developed by Ford for the top-selling Focus. It provides rock-solid straight-line stability on motorways and impressive cornering capability, especially on country roads.
Refinement is much improved, too, thanks in part to better soundproofing and the new, stiffer bodyshell. Safety is another high priority and the Mazda 6 is fitted with four-wheel ABS and EBD as standard, as well as dual-stage front and side airbags. In addition, the company is confident the 6 will do well in the demanding Euro NCAP crash tests. Inside, the cabin will carry five adults in comfort. Front and rear headroom is ample, while the dash design and dials are simple and functional.
A unique one-touch mechanism on the hatchback model allows the driver to lower the rear seats instantly, thus creating a flat-floored luggage space.
There's an improvement in quality, too, with interior trim finished in materials worthy of this class. While the old 626 looked as if it had been crafted from the remains of a plastic chair, the new car borders on the luxurious.
The 6 is impressive - and needs to be if it is to succeed. As the current 626 has few fans, the 6 and its forthcoming family will have to do much better if Mazda is to survive.
Compared with the 626 it replaces, Mazda's 6 is a work of art. Impressive to drive, spacious and comfortable inside, it's the best saloon car Mazda has built to date. But it faces quite a tough challenge. Not only is it charged with reinvigorating Mazda's appeal within the UK, it's also a car that must showcase the worth of the latest chassis produced by parent company Ford. Competitive pricing will help the Mazda's cause and, unlike previous machines from the Japanese manufacturer, it can also expect to benefit from its considerable charms.
At a glance
* New Mazda 6 on UK sale from next summer
* Prices are expected to start at £14,000
* Petrol and diesel choices in new range of engines nBased on all-new driver-oriented chassis
Mazda6 will use Ford to design it's chassis.
Here is an article from English press and great review of future to come in Mazda6:
quote:
Mazda 6
Lowly but surely, Mazda is reinventing itself, tapping into the creativity that brought us the popular MX-5 and storming RX-7 sports cars, and injecting it in its saloons.
The first demonstration of all this work is the stunning replacement for the 626 you see here. Christened simply the Mazda 6, the newcomer is set to rival the Volkswagen Passat, Ford Mondeo and Renault Laguna. Auto Express climbed behind the wheel first to bring you this world exclusive test of the car due on sale next summer.
Although our drive concentrated on the petrol-engined 2.3-litre five-door hatchback, saloon and estate versions will also be available. There is a wide choice of engines, as well, including 1.8 and 2.0-litre petrol units and a 2.0-litre common-rail diesel.
Prices are expected to start from £14,000 for the entry-level edition of the 1.8, rising to around £20,000 for the flagship 2.3-litre model
With an all-new platform, Mazda's Mondeo-sized car also has the advantage of being the latest demonstration of parent company Ford's expertise in chassis engineering. On the road, it did not seem that the 6 was about to disappoint. Not only did the suspension feel supple, and the steering precise, the engine impressed us, too. Our test car gave excellent throttle response from way down low in the rev range. The power delivery builds with engine speed, and the unit feels keener as it passes the 5,000rpm mark. Generating 163bhp at 6,500rpm and 207Nm of torque at 4,000rpm, the five-speed manual gearbox proved suited to the rev-happy engine, offering quick, precise changes. A four-speed automatic is also offered as a cost option on this car, while a five-speed self-shifter will be available on a Japan-only 3.0-litre V6 that will not go on sale in the UK.
On a more challenging road, the all-new self-levelling multi-link rear suspension system makes itself felt. Although described by Mazda engineers as a revolutionary set-up, the system owes a great deal to the 'control blade' arrangement developed by Ford for the top-selling Focus. It provides rock-solid straight-line stability on motorways and impressive cornering capability, especially on country roads.
Refinement is much improved, too, thanks in part to better soundproofing and the new, stiffer bodyshell. Safety is another high priority and the Mazda 6 is fitted with four-wheel ABS and EBD as standard, as well as dual-stage front and side airbags. In addition, the company is confident the 6 will do well in the demanding Euro NCAP crash tests. Inside, the cabin will carry five adults in comfort. Front and rear headroom is ample, while the dash design and dials are simple and functional.
A unique one-touch mechanism on the hatchback model allows the driver to lower the rear seats instantly, thus creating a flat-floored luggage space.
There's an improvement in quality, too, with interior trim finished in materials worthy of this class. While the old 626 looked as if it had been crafted from the remains of a plastic chair, the new car borders on the luxurious.
The 6 is impressive - and needs to be if it is to succeed. As the current 626 has few fans, the 6 and its forthcoming family will have to do much better if Mazda is to survive.
Compared with the 626 it replaces, Mazda's 6 is a work of art. Impressive to drive, spacious and comfortable inside, it's the best saloon car Mazda has built to date. But it faces quite a tough challenge. Not only is it charged with reinvigorating Mazda's appeal within the UK, it's also a car that must showcase the worth of the latest chassis produced by parent company Ford. Competitive pricing will help the Mazda's cause and, unlike previous machines from the Japanese manufacturer, it can also expect to benefit from its considerable charms.
At a glance
* New Mazda 6 on UK sale from next summer
* Prices are expected to start at £14,000
* Petrol and diesel choices in new range of engines nBased on all-new driver-oriented chassis
January-11th-2002, 10:31 PM
#13
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 160
I took my ex-zx3 to over 100 mph and it still felt very stabile and precise P5 did not do as good at speed around 100mph.
It was almost unstable and steering had to be under tight control to keep the car crusing.
P5 edges N.American ZX3 with less body roll in the street driving, but the differnce is not as big as between other American market cars in that class (Corolla, Sunfire, Cavalier, Civic, Jetta/Golf are just behind)
P5 and Focus are the best handling cars in it's class.
It was almost unstable and steering had to be under tight control to keep the car crusing.
P5 edges N.American ZX3 with less body roll in the street driving, but the differnce is not as big as between other American market cars in that class (Corolla, Sunfire, Cavalier, Civic, Jetta/Golf are just behind)
P5 and Focus are the best handling cars in it's class.
January-12th-2002, 07:58 PM
#15
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 160
Biker16 does spend a lot of time on the net and he knows his stuff very very well (what is backed up on focaljet)
I never said that "it's all Ford".
You are the one saying that it's all Mazda.
I've said that Mazda takes as much from Ford as Ford takes from Mazda and that's the way to go.
When you pointed great designes comming from Ford Europe why you could not even mention great Ford Focus?
I was the one who did critisize Ford for a lot of things on focaljet and my ZX3 ended up being a Lemon but I still can see great things in that car. Do you get my point. Let's be objective.
Any discusssion without objectivism will always turn into senseless beating of the dead horse.
Horse is dead.
Let's see what next Protege will be like.
I never said that "it's all Ford".
You are the one saying that it's all Mazda.
I've said that Mazda takes as much from Ford as Ford takes from Mazda and that's the way to go.
When you pointed great designes comming from Ford Europe why you could not even mention great Ford Focus?
I was the one who did critisize Ford for a lot of things on focaljet and my ZX3 ended up being a Lemon but I still can see great things in that car. Do you get my point. Let's be objective.
Any discusssion without objectivism will always turn into senseless beating of the dead horse.
Horse is dead.
Let's see what next Protege will be like.