majorhavoc

Hi guys:

I'm unsure what to do next. I have this intermittent situation where my 2000 Mazda Protoge (1.6L, manual trans) won't start. No cranking, no clicking solenoid, nothing. The dashboard service lights illuminate, I get interior lights, radio, fan, etc. But no apparent current to the starter.

I've had the battery checked twice by two mechanics, both who were in a position to sell me a new one. They both insist it's fine. The first mechanic did replace the battery cables, as they were pretty corroded.

I have this problem only occasionally, always in the morning, and only when it's been cold overnight. I live in Maine, so temperatures are only going to get colder.

I roll start the car, get to where I'm going and the car starts up fine when I leave work. But my employer has a very flat parking lot, so the roll start option isn't available if (when) this happens at work. Plus I have my grade school daughter 3 days a week, and I can't be having this problem on a school morning.

I replaced the starter myself two years ago and it's never given me any trouble, so I doubt it's the starter motor.

My thoughts are: bad starter switch, maybe a corroded wire to the starter itself, or possibly the switch on the clutch pedal that closes the starter circuit. What I can't figure is why any of these would be temperature dependent.

Anyone have any insight on this? I'm hoping someone (who lives in a cold climate) recognizes this issue and knows a likely solution. I've already paid two mechanics, and this is a crappy time of year to blow the monthly budget. So I'd like to find a definitative fix (preferably one I can do myself). Thanks in advance.

djs2571

Start looking for corroded wires, even with a new starter it could have a bad connection in it. Or the brushes could be worn - whack it with a broom handle and see if it starts up.
As with any connection, temperature changes, things shrink, and it could be making / breaking to kill the starter on cold mornings.
Some cars have a neutral switch in the transmission as well (even on standards) but i'm not sure if that's an old car thing or not - which has been replaced with the clutch switch. My old RX7 had one of those but it didn't prevent starting, some other feature that I forget.

If it's the starter, you may be able to rock the car when it's in gear - which will pull the cables just a bit.
If it's the clutch or neutral switch, moving the clutch / shifter would jiggle the switch contacts, possibly making a connection.

OH, it could be a starter relay, some cars use a lower power ignition switch and drive a seperate relay to then go to the starter - so a fuse box corrosion issue could be the culprit as well.


Fix it while you have any warm weather, if it's corrosion it may fall off soon and leave you stranded. In the mean time, park on hills

Good luck

majorhavoc

Hi Dave:

Thought I replied yesterday to thank you, but somehow my post didn't go through. I really appreciate your ideas. That thought about the starter relay is something I didn't think about.

Assuming I can locate them, I'll inspect the contacts on the starter and switches. Maybe I can try jumping the leads on starter switch and clutch pedal cut out to see if that isolates the problem.

One follow up question: Given that I don't even hear the solenoid clicking when this happens, doesn't that suggest it's not the starter, but something in the starter circuit? When the original starter went bad a couple of years ago, I think I remember being able to hear the solenoid when I turned the key.

This is by no means solved, so if any other forum readers have any ideas, I'd really appreciate hearing them.

djs2571

not hearing the starter relay does mean something in the starter circuit.... though the last bit of that circuit is the starter relay itself - which could have a corrosion issue or bad connection.
If you have a volt meter, or a 12V bulb, you can hook that up to some of the circuits to see what is getting power. The starter should be the easiest connection to find, then hit the different fuses and such until finding the issue.

majorhavoc

I'm resurrecting this thread as I'm the OP and my starting problem has returned. Or more properly, it never really went away. (So you don't have to re-read my original post: '00 Proto, 1.6L, manual transmission).

I had my car looked at last winter no fewer than eight times. I think every wire from the battery to the starter motor was replaced at least twice. One bonehead mechanic put no fewer than three new starter motors in it. When I ran out of money it seems to be doing ok and the latest mechanic proclaimed it was a starter motor all along. I never really bought that, but by then it was warming up so I got through the winter hoping this problem was behind me.

Now the same symptoms have begun to surface this summer. Each time it happens, the panel lights and accessories come on, but no sound comes from the starter circuit. The engine doesn't turn over, no clicking solenoid.

All but once this summer, after waiting a few seconds, or after leaving the key in the "start" position for 5 or 10 seconds, it wakes up and starts normally. Absolutely no issues.

One new symptom: when it happens, the clock on my dash radio/CD player resets to 1:00 and I lose all my station presets. About half the time I can hear the CD player eject mechanism cycling.

The problem is far less frequent in the warm weather than last winter. Maybe once or twice a month since May. On one occasion I did have to roll start it. Other than that, it just makes me anxious for a few seconds until it decides to start. I'm dreading the coming winter.

To recap: it's not a bad starter motor/solenoid. It's not a corroded wire to the starter, or coming from the battery. And while I have absolutely no problem getting a new battery, the one thing all the mechanics have been able to to agree on is my current battery checks out fine.

I think the problem is definitely electrical; does anyone have any clue what might be causing this? Or how to diagnose it? I dropped almost a grand last winter trying to get this fixed, and it looks like I'll be heading into the cold season again with little to show for it.

At this point I'd settle for some intelligent advice on how to approach a good mechanic about the problem, especially when it's so hard to replicate in the shop. Thanks in advance guys, this one is really busting my *****.

djs2571

I still think it's an issue with the wiring, a corroded contact on something, more likely just something loose. This would be why it isn't half dead, but an all or nothing sort of scenario. Remember there are fusable links, and that the starter solenoid takes a decent amount of current - which is why trying to start would reset the radio and previously reset the dash lights.

Make sure the battery cables are in good condition, as well as the other ends (ground and starter). Tear apart the fuse block(s) and make sure the fusable links and wiring are all solid connections. I'm sure if you get through this far you will find a screw that's loose / corroded, or some such thing that is your problem.
Hmm - could be the key switch - or other wiring to the ignition, that makes a contact to turn on other circuits, and could cause intermittent issues as well.

KevinCalifornia

MajorHavoc-- did you ever resolve your problem? I'm having the EXACT same issue with my 2000 protege. I can usually count on it taking two tries of turning the key before a connection is made with the starter. Sometimes three. My mechanic eliminated the starter as the issue-- he said that was fine-- so now I'm thinking its either the starter relay, or the ignition switch itself. Before I try to replace either of those items I was checking in to see if you found a cause.

Thanks.

majorhavoc

Kevin:

I did, but I came full circle and replaced the battery. That completely cleared the problem. I know, I know, I said we eliminated the battery as a culprit from the start, but in the end that was the definitative fix.

My (former, and good riddance) mechanic kept insisting it had to be the starter because everything else seemed to check out. Even though I had put in a new one a couple of years previously. Either he was a scam artist or merely incompenent, but the problem seemed to clear up last spring as the weather warmed up. But this past fall it returned with a vengence and an unusually insightful Advance Auto employee observed that while my aging battery still tested within limits, it was really starting to get marginal.

My advice to you is IF your battery is getting old anyway, replace it before you do anything else. Maybe both our vehicles still share a common problem of a high resistence bottleneck somewhere in the starter circuit and we need a good starting jolt to fully activate the starter relay. All I know is the problem is 100% gone and it looks like I could have saved a lot of money and anxiety by simply replacing the battery from the beginning.

Feel free to ask more questions or PM if you want. Good luck.

rimncap

mine is having the same problem 2000 protege 1.6 automatic lx

new battery, cables we not corroded but I cleaned them anyway

cleaned the grounds that didnt need it

took out the starter brought to auto zone to be tested worked fine , cleaned cables and connections (that didnt need it)

put it back in turn the key takes 1-5 turns to start

when it does not start ..you turn the key everything comes on then you turn the key to start it and radio lights go out it does nothing you release the key the radio comes back on the same station ...turn on and off then it starts up like nothing is wrong

djs2571

when you turn the key and all the lights / radio go off - do you hear a click? it should sound like someone knocking on the framw of the car. That click is the solenoid in the starter, depending if you hear that or not tells you where electricity is going & you could have a bad relay (poor contacts that need to be connected a few times before working), starter (bad spots on the rotor so it doesn't turn), or fusable link to the starter (being loose - similar to a bad battery cable).

Wildbuckshot

apparently this has been a unrealized reaccuring problem for me ive owned my Protege for about 4 yrs and in this time ive replaced the battery 3 times & terminals twice due to corrosion but yesterday was a little different my battery had been showing signs of near death since i was having to get a jump every second or third start... I got a jump, drove appx 15 miles after dark, all systems on and operating smoothly, I changed the headlamps from normal to bright.... TOTAL SYSTEM FAILURE, lost headlamps, dash, even the mileage counter went black. I immediatly attempted a rolling start @ 70mph. NOTHING... i pulled over & managed to get a jump.. Immediatly starts all systems go, untill i removed the jumper cables and then nothing.... PLEASE HELP!!!!

2000 Mazda Protege, manual