Enough is enough
May-30th-2002, 01:04 AM
#31
Passion for Zoom Zoom!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 372
I don't know a monkeywrench from an orangoutang, but a search on the matter confirmed what I had heard several times before from various reputable sources, including a family mechanic back home ... ie - the more you idle after a cold start, the more you prematurely wear down internal engine surfaces. There's also the matter of emissions.
Emissions? How much more dirty (rich) exhaust is getting put out that exhaust pipe while you are driving compared to idling? Lots more...
I always let my car warm up about a minute and then very lightly drive it until it warms up. You spend a lot more time idling at stop lights and traffic than you do letting the car warm up for two or three minutes in the morning.
-Jerry
May-30th-2002, 01:28 AM
#32
Passion for Zoom Zoom!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 372
Back to the original topic...
My '99 ES with the 1.8L had a lot of the rattle symptoms like the 2.0L's. The difference is that the 1.8L does not have VTCS. The rattle would come on after a cold start and would sometimes happen during idle down and at idle. It was rather annoying.
However, after my Injen CAI was installed, the rattle went away. It was replaced by an even more annoying tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, in the same instances that the rattle used to occur. These ticks were most noticeable inside the car and were much louder and quicker than the turn signal!
I traced the ticks to the purge solenoid valve. This valve controls the vacuum between the throttle body and charcoal vapor canister mounted on the firewall directly in front of the passenger. I checked with my dealer about this part. It is perfectly normal for it to rapidly cycle on and off, hence the ticking noise. This valve is mounted on the stock intake just before the throttle body. It was moved to a nearby bracket on the firewall. After trying to insulate it with rubber washers (which only slightly quieted the ticking), I moved it to the same bracket the VTCS solenoid plug is mounted to. No more rattles... no more ticking...
My theory is that the cycling of the purge solenoid valve caused a vibration in the intake. The intake is hard plastic and loosely put together, so you get a loud rattle. Moving the valve to the bracket on the firewall allowed the cycling to be transferred directly to the frame, making the loud ticking noise. Moving the valve to the intake manifold allows the cycling to be absorbed by the engine and it's vibration-absorbing mounts. The 2.0L cars have this same purge solenoid valve mounted on the intake. I wonder if the VTCS somehow controls this valve?
Just a guess as to the rattle. Worked on mine...
-Jerry
My '99 ES with the 1.8L had a lot of the rattle symptoms like the 2.0L's. The difference is that the 1.8L does not have VTCS. The rattle would come on after a cold start and would sometimes happen during idle down and at idle. It was rather annoying.
However, after my Injen CAI was installed, the rattle went away. It was replaced by an even more annoying tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, in the same instances that the rattle used to occur. These ticks were most noticeable inside the car and were much louder and quicker than the turn signal!
I traced the ticks to the purge solenoid valve. This valve controls the vacuum between the throttle body and charcoal vapor canister mounted on the firewall directly in front of the passenger. I checked with my dealer about this part. It is perfectly normal for it to rapidly cycle on and off, hence the ticking noise. This valve is mounted on the stock intake just before the throttle body. It was moved to a nearby bracket on the firewall. After trying to insulate it with rubber washers (which only slightly quieted the ticking), I moved it to the same bracket the VTCS solenoid plug is mounted to. No more rattles... no more ticking...
My theory is that the cycling of the purge solenoid valve caused a vibration in the intake. The intake is hard plastic and loosely put together, so you get a loud rattle. Moving the valve to the bracket on the firewall allowed the cycling to be transferred directly to the frame, making the loud ticking noise. Moving the valve to the intake manifold allows the cycling to be absorbed by the engine and it's vibration-absorbing mounts. The 2.0L cars have this same purge solenoid valve mounted on the intake. I wonder if the VTCS somehow controls this valve?
Just a guess as to the rattle. Worked on mine...
-Jerry
May-30th-2002, 01:58 AM
#33
Protege Newbie
Join Date: May 2002
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 16
Originally posted by jstand6
I just really don't feel comfortable with that answer from The Globe and Mail... I have always been told you should warm up the car slightly before driving, especially driving hard. Notice how much less responsive the engine is when it is cold? Notice how much hesitation there is when the engine is cold? Those signs should tell you something.
Emissions? How much more dirty (rich) exhaust is getting put out that exhaust pipe while you are driving compared to idling? Lots more...
I always let my car warm up about a minute and then very lightly drive it until it warms up. You spend a lot more time idling at stop lights and traffic than you do letting the car warm up for two or three minutes in the morning.
-Jerry
I just really don't feel comfortable with that answer from The Globe and Mail... I have always been told you should warm up the car slightly before driving, especially driving hard. Notice how much less responsive the engine is when it is cold? Notice how much hesitation there is when the engine is cold? Those signs should tell you something.
Emissions? How much more dirty (rich) exhaust is getting put out that exhaust pipe while you are driving compared to idling? Lots more...
I always let my car warm up about a minute and then very lightly drive it until it warms up. You spend a lot more time idling at stop lights and traffic than you do letting the car warm up for two or three minutes in the morning.
-Jerry
I'm most guilty of splitting this thread, but it's related to the whole engine rattle thing and how people are coping with it.
A one-minute warm up and driving gently for the first few minutes seems very reasonable, but ...
Another North-of-the-Border reference worth looking at argues against warm ups beyond 30 seconds, regardless of weather. This time it's from Natural Resources Canada. Links to brief pages on both engine wear and emissions are shown towards the bottom of this page ...
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/autosmart/idling/effects.cfm
May-30th-2002, 02:51 AM
#34
Protege Newbie
Join Date: May 2002
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 16
Originally posted by jstand6
...
My theory is that the cycling of the purge solenoid valve caused a vibration in the intake. The intake is hard plastic and loosely put together, so you get a loud rattle. Moving the valve to the bracket on the firewall allowed the cycling to be transferred directly to the frame, making the loud ticking noise. Moving the valve to the intake manifold allows the cycling to be absorbed by the engine and it's vibration-absorbing mounts. The 2.0L cars have this same purge solenoid valve mounted on the intake. I wonder if the VTCS somehow controls this valve?
Just a guess as to the rattle. Worked on mine...
-Jerry
...
My theory is that the cycling of the purge solenoid valve caused a vibration in the intake. The intake is hard plastic and loosely put together, so you get a loud rattle. Moving the valve to the bracket on the firewall allowed the cycling to be transferred directly to the frame, making the loud ticking noise. Moving the valve to the intake manifold allows the cycling to be absorbed by the engine and it's vibration-absorbing mounts. The 2.0L cars have this same purge solenoid valve mounted on the intake. I wonder if the VTCS somehow controls this valve?
Just a guess as to the rattle. Worked on mine...
-Jerry
But, I am a bit more familiar with the ethics of economics, marketing, and management. In this context, I would first ask several things:
1) How many hours did it take to reach an apparent solution?
2) How many others have independently done the same as you?
3) How many hours have the non-mechanically-inclined spent screwing around the service department trying to have them even acknowledge the rattle's existence (my attempt in April to have the dealership help out was a fiasco that involved 100 miles of driving back and forth to the dealership and at least 6 hours of my time taken from workhours, but that's another story).
4) How much is everyone's time worth per hour on average?
If you do the math, you would have a rough collective monetary value of what has been "spent" by the consumers to fix a problem that really is the financial responsibility of the manufacturer.
I paid Mazda $18k for a car with the contractual understanding that it would fix defects. I did not pay you (although I greatly appreciate and thank you for taking time to share your thoughts) and Mazda sure ain't gonna pay you either.
Keep in mind that I realize you and others most likely love working on your cars and are glad you are NOT having to do it for money or messing around with dealerships that all seem to be run by
Satan. The rest of us, tho, can either tolerate the rattle or wait for Mazda to pony up.
May-30th-2002, 03:34 AM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: los angeles CA
Posts: 255
about warming up the engine..... well both websites say something about it being bad for the environment.... and notice that the second website is about energy efficiency so I guess its just natural for them to say something bad....
anyways I don't see how bad the small amount of extra pollution can be for the enviornment at idle will be compared to ppl who drive around with 17mpg SUVs, etc...
but i noticed in the protege manual that it says something about not warming up too long cause it causes gas milage to decrease, so thats probably something along the lines of what the first homepage had to say about engines running richer when cold.....
but my mechanic friend says to warm up until u see the engine temp gauge begin lifting, thats around 3-4mins......
so whats the real truth???
anyways I don't see how bad the small amount of extra pollution can be for the enviornment at idle will be compared to ppl who drive around with 17mpg SUVs, etc...
but i noticed in the protege manual that it says something about not warming up too long cause it causes gas milage to decrease, so thats probably something along the lines of what the first homepage had to say about engines running richer when cold.....
but my mechanic friend says to warm up until u see the engine temp gauge begin lifting, thats around 3-4mins......
so whats the real truth???
May-30th-2002, 11:45 AM
#36
Passion for Zoom Zoom!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 372
Yes, indeed, idling is not the greatest thing for an engine.
But, you know what is absolutely worse?
Putting substantial load on a cold engine!
Remember the days before computer controlled engine management systems? Remember how terrible it was to watch the engine struggle as it was cold? Is it any different? No. Today, the computers can input very fine adjustements (and lots of them) to keep that engine running until it warms up. The engine is still struggling to run, but the computer can act so fast we don't notice it.
Until the engine has reached normal operating temperature, the combustion chambers are too cold to sustain proper ignition of the fuel/air mixture. Carburreted cars had a choke to reduce air intake, which made the fuel/air mixture rich to keep the engine running. Newer cars inject more fuel to create a rich mixture. Plus, newer cars may advance or retard the ignition timing as needed to keep the engine running.
To me, the engine is not in a state to be driven. It's struggling just to stay running until it has warmed up enough to idle properly. As I said, I let my car warm up for a minute and then gently drive it. I also live in San Diego where 70 degrees is common to wake up to. For those who live up in Canada, I can't believe you would only let the car warm up for 30 seconds. And then I can't believe to hear about better torque delivery and 2,700+ rpm. You are driving these engines hard is a cold climate with only 30 seconds of warming up! Do you want to destroy your engines?
-Jerry
But, you know what is absolutely worse?
Putting substantial load on a cold engine!
Remember the days before computer controlled engine management systems? Remember how terrible it was to watch the engine struggle as it was cold? Is it any different? No. Today, the computers can input very fine adjustements (and lots of them) to keep that engine running until it warms up. The engine is still struggling to run, but the computer can act so fast we don't notice it.
Until the engine has reached normal operating temperature, the combustion chambers are too cold to sustain proper ignition of the fuel/air mixture. Carburreted cars had a choke to reduce air intake, which made the fuel/air mixture rich to keep the engine running. Newer cars inject more fuel to create a rich mixture. Plus, newer cars may advance or retard the ignition timing as needed to keep the engine running.
To me, the engine is not in a state to be driven. It's struggling just to stay running until it has warmed up enough to idle properly. As I said, I let my car warm up for a minute and then gently drive it. I also live in San Diego where 70 degrees is common to wake up to. For those who live up in Canada, I can't believe you would only let the car warm up for 30 seconds. And then I can't believe to hear about better torque delivery and 2,700+ rpm. You are driving these engines hard is a cold climate with only 30 seconds of warming up! Do you want to destroy your engines?
-Jerry
