header for the P5
March-23rd-2004, 11:10 PM
#1
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Location: Long Island, NY
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header for the P5
i was browsing through ebay and i came across a new header made for the 3rd gen mazda protege 2.0l. its made by FORZA Tuning which i never heard of but i asked the seller a couple of questions. has anyone heard of this brand at all and know if there good???
heres the link to the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33631
heres the link to the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33631
March-30th-2004, 01:30 PM
#2
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 11,572
I would stay away. Not from personal experience, but lack of. I made a post in the "performance" catagory about a header from Wagner Motorsports. A very nice PROVEN design and reasonably priced at that.
March-30th-2004, 02:38 PM
#3
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 310
Originally posted by Roddimus Prime
I would stay away. Not from personal experience, but lack of. I made a post in the "performance" catagory about a header from Wagner Motorsports. A very nice PROVEN design and reasonably priced at that.
I would stay away. Not from personal experience, but lack of. I made a post in the "performance" catagory about a header from Wagner Motorsports. A very nice PROVEN design and reasonably priced at that.
March-30th-2004, 06:34 PM
#4
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Location: Birmingham, AL
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from the actual dyno I've seen it's 7WHP and 10lb/ft AT THE WHEELS. We've had this discussion before. The product was tested on a stock P5 and produced these gains. If that isn't good enough for you and you are paranoid to think that the cat robs THAT much power you can order your DP with a Random Tech high flow cat or go cat-less for the ultimate in power. FWIW, I'm going catless. Only because I don't have emissions testings here and I don't feel like paying for a cat if I don't have to have it.
It's been proven that a cat on a non-turbo car is not a big detriment to it's performance. It's also been proven they do very little to protect the atmosphere.
*EDIT* I should edit this to say that stock cat is perfectly fine for up to about 200hp. If you're looking to make more than that it will become a restriction and will need to be enlarged or removed.*EDIT*
It's been proven that a cat on a non-turbo car is not a big detriment to it's performance. It's also been proven they do very little to protect the atmosphere.
*EDIT* I should edit this to say that stock cat is perfectly fine for up to about 200hp. If you're looking to make more than that it will become a restriction and will need to be enlarged or removed.*EDIT*
Last edited by Roddimus Prime; April-6th-2004 at 12:30 PM.
March-31st-2004, 11:19 AM
#6
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 310
Originally posted by Roddimus Prime
from the actual dyno I've seen it's 7WHP and 10lb/ft AT THE WHEELS. We've had this discussion before. The product was tested on a stock P5 and produced these gains. If that isn't good enough for you and you are paranoid to think that the cat robs THAT much power you can order your DP with a Random Tech high flow cat or go cat-less for the ultimate in power. FWIW, I'm going catless. Only because I don't have emissions testings here and I don't feel like paying for a cat if I don't have to have it.
It's been proven that a cat on a non-turbo car is not a big detriment to it's performance. It's also been proven they do very little to protect the atmosphere.
from the actual dyno I've seen it's 7WHP and 10lb/ft AT THE WHEELS. We've had this discussion before. The product was tested on a stock P5 and produced these gains. If that isn't good enough for you and you are paranoid to think that the cat robs THAT much power you can order your DP with a Random Tech high flow cat or go cat-less for the ultimate in power. FWIW, I'm going catless. Only because I don't have emissions testings here and I don't feel like paying for a cat if I don't have to have it.
It's been proven that a cat on a non-turbo car is not a big detriment to it's performance. It's also been proven they do very little to protect the atmosphere.
So yes..it does..The idea of a header..is to help the exhuasts gasses leave the compression chamber quicker!
Chas
March-31st-2004, 12:10 PM
#7
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Chas, please man don't try to teach me something. I'm an ASE certified mechanic and a certified Mitsubishi turbo installer/rebuilder.
The point of a header is to maintain a proper exhaust gas velocity. Do not confuse velocity with faster....Also, while the cats diameter is smaller and considered an obstruction it is not one that will yield a notcieable difference...if anything removing it will hurt your powerband down low. A properly designed exhaust manifold with a cat will make the same power if not more than a Ebay header with no cats. a 4-1 design just allows the gasses less restriction at higher rpm's where there is more exhaust to flow out. This topic has been beaten to death.
As for emissions goes: It will past a sniff test, but probably not a visual test. the trick is to just place one o2 sensor after the collector but before the car, then place the second after the cat. The Random Tech. Cat wagner uses is probably the best in the market. Depending price I may go with the cat since I'm not scared of losing power because of its horrible restrictions.
The point of a header is to maintain a proper exhaust gas velocity. Do not confuse velocity with faster....Also, while the cats diameter is smaller and considered an obstruction it is not one that will yield a notcieable difference...if anything removing it will hurt your powerband down low. A properly designed exhaust manifold with a cat will make the same power if not more than a Ebay header with no cats. a 4-1 design just allows the gasses less restriction at higher rpm's where there is more exhaust to flow out. This topic has been beaten to death.
As for emissions goes: It will past a sniff test, but probably not a visual test. the trick is to just place one o2 sensor after the collector but before the car, then place the second after the cat. The Random Tech. Cat wagner uses is probably the best in the market. Depending price I may go with the cat since I'm not scared of losing power because of its horrible restrictions.
April-4th-2004, 04:33 PM
#8
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Roddimus Prime
You are an ASE certified tech and talking about going catless? Shame on you
Your theory is good, but not without loophole, but I digress.
Go with a dyno proven header. You will pay a little more now, but the rewards will be well worth it.
By the way, your car will not pass a sniffer test without both cats.
You are an ASE certified tech and talking about going catless? Shame on you
Your theory is good, but not without loophole, but I digress.Go with a dyno proven header. You will pay a little more now, but the rewards will be well worth it.
By the way, your car will not pass a sniffer test without both cats.
April-5th-2004, 10:47 AM
#10
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I'm ASE certified and live in a state without emissions testing....
What's the point of having a high flow cat that won't pass a sniffer?? That's like a turbo that doesn't build boost...it's just hanging on the exhaust...wth??
I believe the biggest restrictions are the stock manifold and pre cat. By swapping out with the wagner header and custom DP I think optimum gains will be made.....and the dyno doesn't lie.
What's the point of having a high flow cat that won't pass a sniffer?? That's like a turbo that doesn't build boost...it's just hanging on the exhaust...wth??
I believe the biggest restrictions are the stock manifold and pre cat. By swapping out with the wagner header and custom DP I think optimum gains will be made.....and the dyno doesn't lie.
April-6th-2004, 10:24 AM
#11
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 165
Roddimus -
I've been looking @Andy's header with a lot of interest. One thing that bothers me is a statement made that all of the runners are relatively equal length; I believe it was said that one of the runners is about an inch longer that the others.
When I looked at a picture of the header, I don't see any of the runners being the same length at all. Compared to the Essential Speed header, which is supposed to be a true equal length header, it is quite different.
What are your thoughts on this?
I've been looking @Andy's header with a lot of interest. One thing that bothers me is a statement made that all of the runners are relatively equal length; I believe it was said that one of the runners is about an inch longer that the others.
When I looked at a picture of the header, I don't see any of the runners being the same length at all. Compared to the Essential Speed header, which is supposed to be a true equal length header, it is quite different.
What are your thoughts on this?
April-6th-2004, 11:14 AM
#12
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I've always heard EL headers were best overal, but coming from the V8 world I know a "shorty header" makes better power in a more useable part of the powerband than a long tube "EL header".....the essential speed header looks very nice but has a pretty long way to travel before hitting the collector. Why not just buy an EL-4-2-1 header?? It's the same thing.
The Wagner header is designed to produce excellent scavaging while still freeing up the power lost in the cast manifold. Andy's primary concern was to keep emissions friendly while producing the best tuned "shorty-style" header he could.
The only other thing I can say about his product over the ES product is Andy actually has customers with actual dyno's showing what it makes. ES is just making claims and no'one yet has their product (that I know of). Wagner header made 7whp and 10lb/ft. on a STOCK p5 with both cats and crappy downpipe.
I've ordered my header already and it should ship out this week. I'll be sure to update everyone with a "how-to" and pictures of the before and after.
The Wagner header is designed to produce excellent scavaging while still freeing up the power lost in the cast manifold. Andy's primary concern was to keep emissions friendly while producing the best tuned "shorty-style" header he could.
The only other thing I can say about his product over the ES product is Andy actually has customers with actual dyno's showing what it makes. ES is just making claims and no'one yet has their product (that I know of). Wagner header made 7whp and 10lb/ft. on a STOCK p5 with both cats and crappy downpipe.
I've ordered my header already and it should ship out this week. I'll be sure to update everyone with a "how-to" and pictures of the before and after.
April-6th-2004, 11:51 AM
#13
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 426
a quick word on essential speed...their customer service is HORRIBLE. i know a guy that's been waiting on a header for about a month now...and he gets no responce from ES. i want the racing mazda header...it's an equal-length 4-2-1...but again, their customer service sucks as well...i've emailed them several times about purchasing a header...and i've only gotten 1 reply. if wagner would make a EL 4-2-1 that cuts out both cats like the RM header, i'd buy one...along with several other people...perhaps Mr. Prime could put in a good word Wagner to look into this.
April-6th-2004, 12:28 PM
#14
The man behind the mask
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I can and will....I still prefer my shorty-style header over the EL long tube headers. I'e had both and the shorty ALWAYS worked better.
Just for giggles the shorty header is only $265 from wagner...in T606 SS....you can get a cast header for about $180. What are these other places charging?? Isn't ES's header like $400USD??
Just for giggles the shorty header is only $265 from wagner...in T606 SS....you can get a cast header for about $180. What are these other places charging?? Isn't ES's header like $400USD??