Aggressive Camshafts
 

Maybe this has been thoroughly discussed at some point in time, but the search function isn't all too good anymore, so here is my question:

If I get custom intake and exhaust camshafts ground to much more aggressive specs than the J-Spec ones, what else must I upgrade? In this thread here Edwin mentions that the J-spec ones are almost too aggressive on our cars. Would upgrading the valve springs/retainers permit the more aggressive camshafts? If so, would the stock ECU work fine with the new cams, or would stand alone be in the near future? My research in this area has only just begun, suggestions and ideas are welcome. I intend to contact camshaft manufacturers to talk about what I want and what I should do...any one in particular recommended?

Thanks for all the help guys!

PS - My car is NA, I don't wanna hear how aggressive cams don't go well with turbo! :)

Is there anyone like that who knows all about the FS-DE engine? If I spend the money, I don't want it to be wasted and end up with bent valves, broken pistons, etc.

GCS, what are you planning on doing to your car that you will want such aggresive cams? I have read that too aggressive cams really mess with the cars drivability, ie. an everyday driver. Just curious to see what you have planned.

The car right now is a daily driver, but after I put my Camry back together that might take over. If not, I'd just want the cams for better performance. I don't want all-out racing camshafts, just more aggressive than J-spec, as 5WHP seems too little. But eventually I might auto-cross my car if I find events around here. I'm just trying to find good ways to build up some NA power without rebuilding the entire engine.

although they don't give a very impressive gain like you mentioned, they will help to move the power band up slightly and promote a stronger pull to redline, which makes it much more fun to drive altogether. I have heard it feels like a lot more of a gain than 5whp...

I have heard that also, but if I get more aggressive cams with a better gain, it seems to me it would be even more fun to drive :)

cams are a give and take relationship. With the VVT setup on most modern cars they work to allow deceent low, mid, and high RPM performance and gas mileage. If you get aggresive cams, you shift the performance in favor of higher RPMs. However, this boggs down the lower RPMs and can make your car much less efficient (lower gas mileage, much rougher idle) since you are tuning the engine to a setup where it will run in the high RPM's more often (autoX, road raceing, etc). However there are acceptable limits. Since more engines are much more efficient at breathing at higher RPM's you make gains in performance.

Basically it comes down to what are you gonna be doin with the car with new cams. If you are going to be at WOT often then aggresive cams are a good tradeoff for practicality. However, if you are just looking for a boost in overall performance, you're not gonna get it with cams alone.

With the new cams I will be driving my car like normal, and maybe in the future auto-x it. I know cams alone won't give me awesome performance, but I have to start somewhere. You have any good ideas to build up NA performance? :confused: If so, I'd love to hear them and get some new ideas flowing for me.

Wow the only cams you guys got get up to 5whp. If you are gonna do cams consider doing a pnp and bump your compression up to 10:1 this should give you a 25-40hp gain depending on the cams you choose.

Also if you want to play and see what kind of numbers you can get out of different cams try this program http://www.dumpspace.net/OtherFiles/Dyno2000.zip

I personally use a .405 lift intake cam and looking to up to a .350 exhuast cam. If you are serious about getting basic cams made for your cars look into Gude they might be able to make you something along the lines of a .420 intake and .400 exhaust. Also if you want to get a custom set of cams be willing to spend about 800 to a grand for a set of cams.

Oh yeah I don't own a protege I own a zx2 which basically uses the same tranny I dunno about the engine though. I've seen em both they look similar but I'd have to line em up to see if they'd fit.

If I had the money, believe my I'd already have a port and polished head, stand alone, and high compression pistons. About the Dyno2000 program, what exactly is it?

It basically allows you to get an idea of what your cams an motor can produce as far as HP goes to the flywheel. The program is usually right within 10hp. This way you can get an idea of how much HP you will get if you do a Race PNP Racing single plane intake manifold, Higher compression and so on. All you need to start are the specs on your current engine things like bore&stroke valve sizes, valve lift and such. You should be able to get the information from your chiltons manual if you have one.

I am probably wrong here but if you got a port and polish done to your head wouldnt you be lowering your compression ratio since you are taking material out of the combustion chamber? or are you talking about putting high comp. pistons in?

GCS, There are a lot of things you can do to make the car faster. FS-ZE intake manifold full ported and polished, if you are feeling frisky I would get it extrude honed as well, is where I would start. Seems like a good investment. As far as cams go, back in the day we had discussions about whether or not running both the FS-ZE intake and exhaust cam would mess with your idle. A LOT of people are running both cams and don't seem to have a problem. I would, however be careful about putting a more agressive cam in the 2.0l w/o doing some ECU tuning.

Im sure somebody will say it, but the BEST hp for money ratio, maybe not the best way to get HP, but n2o is always an option.

Id look into upgrading your fuel system at some point as well.

I recently put the J-Spec cams in my Protege 5. I must say I was expecting huge results, and powering down the road like nothing else on 4 wheels :)

My impressions are the opposite. I do feel like I've gained some horespower but mainly throughout the RPM band. At WOT you definetly feel a stronger pull towards redline. I feel much more comfortable pushing the revs over 5000 now. It always used to feel like there wasn't much benefit to pushing much beyond 5000. I could tell I wasn't getting much additional benefit. With the cams in it's a pleasure to push it harder. The car seems smoother, and more consitent throughout.

I'm not sure where I go from here with my performance modifcations but I would suggest a cam swap to anyone if they are looking for one more piece of their performance puzzle.

The FS-ZE intake manifold sells for around $530+shipping I believe, plus the extra cost of labor to extrude/hone it and all that good stuff. Would the results really justify the cost? I was under the impression it wouldn't do all too much for me. And the more and more I read, it looks like I'll have to get stand alone engine management if I want to do any internal modifications.

I'm definitely never going to get N2O or any forced induction ever on my Protege, just not a big fan of F/I. If I stay N/A and if I do get engine management, I wouldn't need to upgrade the fuel system then, would I? I've heard the stock system is capable of handling almost whatever I'd call for.

Well a header combined with those cams would probably produce results that you are looking for. I know when I installed my header it made a huge difference ontop of my cam. Kinda like the turbo kicking in above 5k.



IF you want to do nos look into starting out with a 25 shot and work your way up. I'm not sure on the maxium HP numbers these cars can handle. But it should be in the range of about 200-230hp before you need internal work.

I'd personally get .405 cams Race PNP oversized valves and 4-1 headers keep the cats get a custom burned chip and you'd be running the same times as the mazdaspeed turbo version. You'd have a slightly rough idle but it wont be bad. Should cost you all about 3k if you do the labor yourself.

Not exactly, all the material removal takes place above the valve bottoms, which is not part of the combustion chamber.

GCS I understand what you are looking to do with remaining NA. I feel the same way, but it is nearly impossible to get the power and torque of the guys running FI with our engines. Race cams and oversized valves are not going to outshine the price to have them made in the first place, meaning they are not going to give you crazy gains in the rev range our engine is capable of.

I will summerize this again for those who seem to be confused (Not aiming at you GCS)

HP is a function of revs. Our FS engine does not allow a high enough peak rpm or the breathing for breathtaking power. It has a fairly long stroke and a slew of other fixed issues dictating it's ability to remain NA. Anyone looking to easily build a NA FS that will outperform even a mildly turbocharged FS will be sadly shot down. The Speed World Challenge proteges are still only making around 240hp with a $17,000 engine and management system...

If I had to set a limit on the maximum power obtainable without any custom work or FI, I would say about 185hp. That would simply be a FS-ZE or equivalent FS and ECU without a primary cat, 4-2-1 header,exhaust, intake, and MSP 10.5:1 pistons...After that you will be running into controversial porting and polishing and other custom shit that will give you 2-3hp for 1000's of dollars and if done by some jackass will kill power anyway...

That would be a great engine for our cars, but the torque number may not rise much if at all, so you will still have trouble dusting a MSP protege...

Thanks Installshield, many good points. It looks like the FS-DE doesn't have too much potential, so I guess I won't spend the money like I planned/wanted to. Perhaps I can upgrade my suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes instead. I guess I'm just expecting a lot more NA power than the engine has to give. Who knows what'll happen next?

As far as remaining NA, that is exactly it...

I remember you and I both fucked around with this subject a while ago and that thread had more of the tech guys helping us out. This thread seems to have gained the attention of guys not understanding the Protege's engine as much as some others. The racing cams and whatever else mentioned will work on engines with the internal physics allowing higher revs, but an FS simply will not breathe or rev as well as some other 4 cylinders and that is controlled mostly by the engine's design rather than parts that can be swapped, polished, or ported...

The main reason I was interested in NA was the instant response and lack of need to buy everything at once. You could buy the various parts at different times. You can do the same with a turbo, but the majority of expense has to be paid initially...

Also I 100% agree with upgrading the suspension first. If you build a stupid powerful engine and don't have enough suspension power to handle it, you will be bordering the thoughts of Eclipse owners...

Yeah doing the suspension first will make for a fun-to-drive car and give me some more time to think over my engine plans, or even if there will be any extensive work in the future. And I've heard about the Eclipses, with the chassis that just flexes and flexes...yay! Thanks for the insight about the engine by the way.

i dont think anyone with over a 75 shot of nitrous is still driving their cars. So the 200-230hp range is alittle out of reach.

why not just throw in a turbo if your throwin down $3k?? I don't even think you can crack the prtege ECU, at least not the numbers you need to change.

Well I was'nt completly sure when I saw that long stroke ratio. My little zetec has a relatively even stroke ratio compared to bore. I think its like 3.34x3.46 I noticed the protege engine has 3.26x3.62. Judging by the numbers produced out of Dyno2000 program it looks like you could get about 185-200hp for around 3k. But I'm not sure about street legality on that. An engine management system would set you back another 3 if you got one. I think you would be better off running boost. I'm not sure what the redline on a Protege engine is though. My motor runs to 7200rpms I just assumed yours could run about 7grand.

I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I'm learning to.

How much difference do you guys foresee with a FP-DE (1.8L) engine?

Depends on what your Bore-Stroke ratio is.
Look up your car on someplace like www.car-point.com and get me the ratios off of it

the car-point.com link doesn't work.

sorry its http://www.carpoint.com

Could you please explain what rod ratio is, how to find it, and what it affects? Thanks in advance. :D

gregerson,

Got myself registered on carpoint, but having trouble finding bore-stroke. Help? Thanks in advance

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
[B]bore vs stroke doesnt mean crap....


Bore to Stroke ratio means a whole lot in engine design. High rpm motors need short strokes to achive those revs, and you won't hardly find a motor running 10k with a larger stroke than bore. It's about piston velocity/acceleration much more so than rod angle. Sure it plays on the piston acceleration too, just not as much as stroke. High rod ratio is really just a side benefit of an over square motor and a weakness of an under square motor. Given equal displacement, a long stroke motor (under square) will produce better low end torque due to the extra crank leverage, but suffer a low top due to the limited revs. A short stroke motor (over square) will suffer from poor low end but will rev out better making more power on the higher revs. This is the root of engine design. The F series was not intended to be a high rever and as such became under square, where rod ratio is almost insignificant.

I have custom ground cams in the .380 @ 223 range waitng to be installed, and just got the latest version of the AWR 4-2-1 header. As soon as I work out a static timing advance adjustment and test a defeat for the exhaust hall effect, it's going together with adjustable pulleys and a decked/ported head. It should be well worth the $1600. I'll let you all know how it goes, or doesn't, which ever the case may be. Problem is I test drove a Evo VIII this past weekend and am now wondering what's the point.

YOu don't have to be a member of carpoint just look up used car then look up the car that uses the 1.8 engine in it then look up engine part of the information on the car.

I can do it in about 1min if you give me the year and model of the car.

Be sure to let us know how things go. You mentioned a camshaft spec, is it that similar for intake and exhaust? Also, do you know the factory specs off-hand? How soon do you plan to have this all together and functional?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zeus
[B]This is all true, but what Jesse meant I think was related to FS/FP engines. Simply boring the cylinder walls to bring the engine closer to square will not yeild much of a result becuase of the head and smaller valves in the first place. Stock oversquare engines as you said tend to breathe much better and deliver more higher end power in general, but they also have heads designed for that purpose.

FWIW the FS-DE is not ridiculously undersquare. The ZE has the same cylinder dimensions, meaning it is still undersquare, yet produces "oversquare" like numbers (170hp/132lb/ft). I would guess that the FS-DE's breathing problems are more related to the cams and the ECU, rather than simply being undersquare... Also, the FS is a decent revver when brought to ZE-specs. the engine will easily spin around 7000rpm with the occasional couple hundred rpm above, which is definately not that bad for a fixed timing/lift "undersquare" engine...

Gregerson,
99 Protege ES 1.8
I'm sure people would like to know (me included) how to look that up. I just don't see any links on the site that would lead to that kind of info.

Thanks

unless it's a rotary!! :bigthumb:

The hand-built B18C5 also red lines around 8600 rpm or something, which is higher than almost every stock engine period...Oversquare or under...

But the type R motor is balanced and strong enough to handle that. Not to mention they made the piston skirts pretty small to cut out a bit of wieght thus there is a oil consumption issue.

This is completely irrelevent...Jesse posted the B18C5 specs to show that bore vs. stroke does not dictate an engine's ability to breathe or rev, to a certain point (in modern 4cylinders, this is not as extreme as the undersquareness of a fire truck's engine or the oversquareness of a F1 V-10)...No one is arguing that engine bottom end balancing or piston design is not related to revving high...It was only showing that a FS-DE's breathing and revving problems are most likely not solely related to it being undersquare...

The 1.8 motor has a bore stroke of 3.31 X 3.27 which is'nt all that bad for the person who wants to go n/a.

My guess is it all depends on engine balance and strength of internals. You'd probably get a maxium of 170-180hp out of it before you went beyond street spec. But looking at the dyno specs of it you could have a fat high end powerband with that bore stroke combo. If you upgrade the valvetrain PNP the valves and upgrade/balance the bottom end that 1.8 could hold over 200whp between 5500 and 9k provided you have a good enough intake manifold. I don't think the G5M transmission would take it though since the syncros would fly apart at 7800 rpms. But the G15m might be a slightly different story possibly a swap from a G25MR would help.


I'd say the potential for the 1.8 L motor is actually quite high with a gude head package oversized valves dual springs, titanium retainers, single plain manifold, Engine management system, Large tube headers and a compression ratio of 11.00:1 You'd need a 4 inch intake tube as well.

But the numbers coming out of that motor are very high potential numbers according to the math charts. I'd almost venture to guess slightly higher numbers than the type R motor.

I thought upgrading the valvetrain was not an upgrade really, but rather a downgrade essentially. Didn't JustinMP3s new head not work out because of the valvetrain work?

It looks like you could get your 1.8L up to a 130whp on doing just cams and building up the flow abilities on the intake manifold and doing smal tube headers with mufflers.

So basically with I/H/E set of cams and a chip the 1.8 motor would get you 130-140whp

Gregers...sorry it seems like I am disagreeing with you a bunch on this thread, but if a "chip" was an 8 year old girl, any third gen Protege would be a convicted child molester...check the FAQ...