domestic cars
June-2nd-2003, 01:29 PM
#31
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 83
Originally posted by carguycw
Hummer H2 Finishes Last in J.D. Power Survey
"It's so much louder than my Lexus! Is this normal?"
"I know it's big, but 11 mpg?!? I thought than my E420 got bad mileage! Is this normal?"
"There's so much wind noise! Why is that?"
Just goes to show that money does not necessarily equal brains, and that baby boomers in search of midlife crisis mitigation should stick to Boxsters.
Hummer H2 Finishes Last in J.D. Power Survey
"It's so much louder than my Lexus! Is this normal?"
"I know it's big, but 11 mpg?!? I thought than my E420 got bad mileage! Is this normal?"
"There's so much wind noise! Why is that?"
Just goes to show that money does not necessarily equal brains, and that baby boomers in search of midlife crisis mitigation should stick to Boxsters.
June-2nd-2003, 01:31 PM
#32
Protege Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: toronto,canada
Posts: 146
Im sorry guy but id rather have some paint chipping then a series of recalls like most gm cars have had.
some of the recalls for the domestics have been ridiciolous like engine fires, suspension troubles ,things falling of etc...
the domestic car makers need to stop producing kmart cars and give us good quality stuff.
if the japs and the europeans can produce fine cars why cant we?
some of the recalls for the domestics have been ridiciolous like engine fires, suspension troubles ,things falling of etc...
the domestic car makers need to stop producing kmart cars and give us good quality stuff.
if the japs and the europeans can produce fine cars why cant we?
June-2nd-2003, 01:35 PM
#33
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 83
Originally posted by jjac28
if the japs and the europeans can produce fine cars why cant we?
if the japs and the europeans can produce fine cars why cant we?
What about the Ford Fairmont? The Chevy Corisica? The Chevy Lumina? The Ford Aspire? The Aztek? These are some fine automobiles!
June-2nd-2003, 01:47 PM
#34
Protege Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: toronto,canada
Posts: 146
my dads got a 97 lumina and at only 100k km he's already leaking transmission oil. mechanic is saying it will take over $600 to fix
poor man, all he wanted was a solid and reliable family sedan
and he babied the car too. go figure.
poor man, all he wanted was a solid and reliable family sedan
and he babied the car too. go figure.
Last edited by jjac28; June-5th-2003 at 09:49 AM.
June-2nd-2003, 01:56 PM
#35
Ive got that funny feelin
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Columbus, Oh
Posts: 291
oh yeah, not to bring up some DSM's that break trannies ALL the time. Mitsu = fine quality import too! I can't remember if anybody brought this up previously or not (I think they did) Ford and GM put their money into their Trucks, thats where you see the American automakers shine. I don't know of ANY import that can touch the build quality of an F150 or a Silverado. Email Ford or GM and ask them the precentage of their sales are Trucks alone, I *think* the F150 accounts for almost 20% of Fords total sales.
June-2nd-2003, 01:59 PM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 118
What about the Ford Fairmont? The Chevy Corisica? The Chevy Lumina? The Ford Aspire? The Aztek? These are some fine automobiles!
June-2nd-2003, 02:58 PM
#38
huh?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Caracas,Venezuela
Posts: 871
What I don't get is that GM cars used to be reliable, at least in my experience.
My dad still owns a 86' Chevrolet Century (or Buick, depends on the country), that thing is one fine automobile, it's 17 years old and it's still going strong, nothing has been rebuilt and it hasn't given any mayor trouble. It's no longer a daily driver, it's actually the replacement car when one of our cars breaks down or whatever, it's ten times more reliable now than my old 92' Galant was. It might not be "fun" to drive, but it's comfortable, reliable and I have fond memories of it. Oh, it also has the best and coldest A/C I've ever used in a car, it doesn't add any hp but it's pretty cool (pun intended).
It still runs fine but it's cosuming a lot of oil, after 17 years of non stop service it's asking to have it's engine rebuilt and I think it deserves it, but as long as you put oil in it the car runs fine.
My dad says he wants to sell it, but he's been saying that for years...he loves that car, it's still sitting in our driveway and it's used at least once a month.
We also had a Malibu, 82' I think, and it was also a very good car, not nearly as reliable or comfortable as the Century of course, but it stayed with ous for over 10 years without having any mayor work done.
My dad still owns a 86' Chevrolet Century (or Buick, depends on the country), that thing is one fine automobile, it's 17 years old and it's still going strong, nothing has been rebuilt and it hasn't given any mayor trouble. It's no longer a daily driver, it's actually the replacement car when one of our cars breaks down or whatever, it's ten times more reliable now than my old 92' Galant was. It might not be "fun" to drive, but it's comfortable, reliable and I have fond memories of it. Oh, it also has the best and coldest A/C I've ever used in a car, it doesn't add any hp but it's pretty cool
(pun intended).It still runs fine but it's cosuming a lot of oil, after 17 years of non stop service it's asking to have it's engine rebuilt and I think it deserves it, but as long as you put oil in it the car runs fine.
My dad says he wants to sell it, but he's been saying that for years...he loves that car, it's still sitting in our driveway and it's used at least once a month.
We also had a Malibu, 82' I think, and it was also a very good car, not nearly as reliable or comfortable as the Century of course, but it stayed with ous for over 10 years without having any mayor work done.
June-2nd-2003, 03:11 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,122
Originally posted by TrexPro5
What about the paint on the new Protege's? I know the BEAUTIFUL classic red that I have on my car is already chipping like CRAZY because, at least it looks to me, like its a single stage paint. Why do automanufactuers use single stage paint? To save money... hrmm where was my car manufactured and built? Japan?!
What about the paint on the new Protege's? I know the BEAUTIFUL classic red that I have on my car is already chipping like CRAZY because, at least it looks to me, like its a single stage paint. Why do automanufactuers use single stage paint? To save money... hrmm where was my car manufactured and built? Japan?!
1) Yes, Classic Red is beautiful.
2) Yes, it requires lots of attention.
3) Yes, it's single stage.
4) Yes, this was done to save money because multi-stage red (or yellow) paint that looks this nice costs too much to apply to an ECONOMY car.
The quality of Classic Red paint is a bit of a problem with the Protege. (My car is Classic Red.) However, to bring this back onto topic...5) Show me a DOMESTIC economy car that's 10 years old and has paint that looks as nice as your average 10-year-old Protege.
One of my friends had a Mustang which, at only 6 years of age, had so much oxidation on the top side of the car that it had to be repainted. This car was washed and waxed religiously. Another friend has a 95 Neon, and the top-side paint is peeling off in 6" chunks (and the leftover bare metal spots are rusting).
Proteges are ECONOMY cars. They do not have fancy, expensive paint. However, compared to most domestic economy cars, our paint problems are minor.
June-2nd-2003, 03:15 PM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,122
Originally posted by TrexPro5
I don't know of ANY import that can touch the build quality of an F150 or a Silverado.
I don't know of ANY import that can touch the build quality of an F150 or a Silverado.
On an email list that I belong to, Domestic Trucks vs. Toyota Trucks turned into a 2 week, 200+ message firefight. This is almost as bad as asking what kind of motor oil is the best, or asking domestic truck enthusiasts which American company's diesel engines are the best.OK, everybody, let's quietly let this topic die...
June-2nd-2003, 06:30 PM
#41
Trogdor!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Posts: 327
Originally posted by carguycw
A few reasons...
1) Low sticker price. Many Americans will buy low-quality crap if it's a really good deal. The continued success of Wal-Mart proves this.
2) The mighty GMAC financing and incentive machine.
3) An unparalleled dealer network. Chevrolet has dealerships in rural areas. Mazda generally does not.
4) Many Americans still operate under the old-fashioned tradition of always sticking with one domestic brand. If you believe this type of thinking is dead, you haven't visited rural Texas. However, this viewppoint IS dying out, fueled largely by years of inferior, outdated, unreliable FWD crap coming out of GM.
However, I think it's important to note that the Cavalier IS in a sales tailslide (compare the production figures 10 years ago if you need proof), and there's a reason that Toyota is now selling more passenger cars in America than GM, despite far lower fleet sales.
A few reasons...
1) Low sticker price. Many Americans will buy low-quality crap if it's a really good deal. The continued success of Wal-Mart proves this.
2) The mighty GMAC financing and incentive machine.
3) An unparalleled dealer network. Chevrolet has dealerships in rural areas. Mazda generally does not.
4) Many Americans still operate under the old-fashioned tradition of always sticking with one domestic brand. If you believe this type of thinking is dead, you haven't visited rural Texas.
However, this viewppoint IS dying out, fueled largely by years of inferior, outdated, unreliable FWD crap coming out of GM. However, I think it's important to note that the Cavalier IS in a sales tailslide (compare the production figures 10 years ago if you need proof), and there's a reason that Toyota is now selling more passenger cars in America than GM, despite far lower fleet sales.
As quoted, there are no rural Mazda dealers in Saskatchewan. One in Saskatoon, one in Regina. There is all three of the big three in my hometown of 5000 people.
Some companies trade quality for cost savings, and you can't fault them for their methods. I have to weigh quality and cost every day at the company I work for. The engineers at GM most definitely do the same.
June-3rd-2003, 04:29 PM
#42
Demands Perfection
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 344
Domestic Suvival
My theory regarding domestic auto makers is one of economics. Domestic cars cost a bit less than foreign competitors, and indeed this lesser cost surely has something to do with the quality of American autos, but I believe it goes further than that. Slightly lesser initial cost alone doesn't explain the blatant poor reliability so consistently shown by U.S. auto makes.
U.S. auto makers have been in the business longer than nearly anyone else, and based thereon should be fully capable of building consistently reliable vehicles. Given that they don't, I believe it's deliberate. As some of you may know, dealers make more money on vehicle service than they do through actual new car sales-- The service industry is a massive, massive establishment, and I believe U.S. auto makers deliberately build lousy quality vehicles in order to artificially support their parts and service industry.
This deliberate practice is a fine line to walk, as in the late 70's and 80's they went too far and built cars that were so poor in quality that it prompted a backlash from their customer base, who began buying Japanese autos because of the better quality they've always demonstrated. Through the 90’s, however, U.S. auto makers began figuring out how to build cars just lame enough to keep service industry happy, but not enough for average, ignorant individuals to notice. For most people, problems with a car are just a normal part of owning a vehicle and they merrily head to the service department to get things fixed or simply live with it, unrepaired, as an accepted fact of life.
The bottom line is American auto makers bank on buyer ignorance and misguided delusions of patriotism to support their domination of the auto world, and they do so with immense skill. There can be no other explanation for the success of the, for instance, Ford Focus. Although Focus is a comfortable, good performing, roomy, quiet riding car, it’s easily among the least reliable vehicles to come down the pike in many, many years. Yet it sells in large numbers. Foolish ignorance couldn’t have been better demonstrated on the part of daft auto buyers, and is pretty much the sole reason why domestic autos have continued to survive against patently superior alternatives.
As long as education continues to be dismissed in this country American auto makers will always dominate the market and continue to sell comparatively poor vehicles. There is virtually an endless parade of oafs all too eager to buy Chevy Cavaliers in the U.S., and the cycle continues on in perpetuity...
U.S. auto makers have been in the business longer than nearly anyone else, and based thereon should be fully capable of building consistently reliable vehicles. Given that they don't, I believe it's deliberate. As some of you may know, dealers make more money on vehicle service than they do through actual new car sales-- The service industry is a massive, massive establishment, and I believe U.S. auto makers deliberately build lousy quality vehicles in order to artificially support their parts and service industry.
This deliberate practice is a fine line to walk, as in the late 70's and 80's they went too far and built cars that were so poor in quality that it prompted a backlash from their customer base, who began buying Japanese autos because of the better quality they've always demonstrated. Through the 90’s, however, U.S. auto makers began figuring out how to build cars just lame enough to keep service industry happy, but not enough for average, ignorant individuals to notice. For most people, problems with a car are just a normal part of owning a vehicle and they merrily head to the service department to get things fixed or simply live with it, unrepaired, as an accepted fact of life.
The bottom line is American auto makers bank on buyer ignorance and misguided delusions of patriotism to support their domination of the auto world, and they do so with immense skill. There can be no other explanation for the success of the, for instance, Ford Focus. Although Focus is a comfortable, good performing, roomy, quiet riding car, it’s easily among the least reliable vehicles to come down the pike in many, many years. Yet it sells in large numbers. Foolish ignorance couldn’t have been better demonstrated on the part of daft auto buyers, and is pretty much the sole reason why domestic autos have continued to survive against patently superior alternatives.
As long as education continues to be dismissed in this country American auto makers will always dominate the market and continue to sell comparatively poor vehicles. There is virtually an endless parade of oafs all too eager to buy Chevy Cavaliers in the U.S., and the cycle continues on in perpetuity...
Last edited by ProtegeMaster; June-3rd-2003 at 04:39 PM.
June-3rd-2003, 05:35 PM
#43
Trogdor!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Posts: 327
I have a hard time believing the design teams incorporate intentional failure into their designs, if that was the case, they would simply notch every gear in the tranny and wait for it to fail after 1 million revs. The science for this is fairly predictable, and they could easily do it if they wanted. I am more inclined to believe the cost cutting measures and increased profit margins argument than an intentional service oriented scheme. That's too much cynicism even for my jaded ***.
June-3rd-2003, 10:51 PM
#44
huh?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Caracas,Venezuela
Posts: 871
I don't think it's deliberate,IMO it's just lousy design product of cost cutting and the fact that they're resting on their american automaker reputation amongst some of the less educated consumers and don't bother to make better cars, this kind of consumers is slowly but steadely decreasing, there will always be some of them but not enough to keep this automakers afloat.
But I also don't know how important the car market actually is to them, I think that they make their biggest profits by selling trucks and just make most of the cars because some people still buy them.
But I also don't know how important the car market actually is to them, I think that they make their biggest profits by selling trucks and just make most of the cars because some people still buy them.
June-3rd-2003, 11:46 PM
#45
Protege Anarchist
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 708
Originally posted by jjac28
my dads got a 97 lumina and at only 100km hes already leaking transmission oil. mechanic is saying it will take over $600 to fix
poor man, all he wanted was a solid and reliable family sedan
and he babied the car too.
my dads got a 97 lumina and at only 100km hes already leaking transmission oil. mechanic is saying it will take over $600 to fix
poor man, all he wanted was a solid and reliable family sedan
and he babied the car too.
I rebuilt one of those shitty trannies, and I don't ever want to do it again