classic comeback
Protege Anarchist
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 708
From: Dallas, TX
that's why the mustang has essentially won the pony wars.... in sales (I don't care about which performs better... that's not the scope of this post... save the mustang vs camaro arguement on the muscle car boards)
I rode in a 4th gen once... simply put, I felt like I was going to die
I rode in a 4th gen once... simply put, I felt like I was going to die
Originally posted by hihoslva
The F's were absolutely all about the motor (if you got one with the REAL motor - forget anything less than 8 cylinders, of course). But in essence, that's the problem they had.
Car buyers today demand more from a "performance" car - and rightfully so. Not eveyone thinks "tricky" handling is fun. And simply forget about the V8 'maros and 'birds in any kind of snow. Tricky doesn't begin to describe the handling then.....
I can understand how a car that requires finesse to toss around is a blast to drive - I've had a couple (both Camaros, '79 and '84 - and only the 305 motors. But my '79 was a four speed manual - awesome) - not the most powerful out there, but still plenty capable. I've also driven numerous Vettes of various years, as well as some hot 'Stangs, one would kick the **** out of any Vette. They were damn fun when I was younger, and who wouldn't want a nice brute LS1 (without the computerized "safety nets") for romping on. But as a daily driver or commuter car, these GMs really didn't treat their owners to anything other than horsepower, with LOTS of sacrifices to get it. I mean - where's yours now? Why don't you own one anymore? That's really my point.
Not to get into a huge debate about the topic, because I think we're mostly in agreement here; but the F-bodies outgrew themselves. They were no longer "cheap power", as a top-equipped model could easily push $30k - "kids" weren't buying them anymore as they became too expensive to own and insure. Older folks needed more practicality or looked for more "class". And the import scene was definitely a nail in the coffin of Camaro and 'Tweety Bird".
It was time for them to go - but I think GM needs to step up to the plate and create some viable replacements. I'd love to see a new platform - but a smaller car, one that can truly handle well. It's a real feat to get a 3500 lb car to really handle, thus the price tag of the Vette. Shave off 700 or 800 lbs and things can be a lot more fun at a reasonable price. And a powerful V6 is a fine trade off for the big V8s - you can get gobs of power in small car with a well-tuned 6. ****, Honda and Subaru get 240 and 227 HP respectively out of FOURS - and the Honda has NO forced induction (S2000)!!
I mean, besides a $50k Vette, what else does GM offer that can be considered a true sports car? Make a tight car that fits tight budgets, and they'll have a winner. IMHO, the "new" GTO just ain't the ticket.
~HH
The F's were absolutely all about the motor (if you got one with the REAL motor - forget anything less than 8 cylinders, of course). But in essence, that's the problem they had.
Car buyers today demand more from a "performance" car - and rightfully so. Not eveyone thinks "tricky" handling is fun. And simply forget about the V8 'maros and 'birds in any kind of snow. Tricky doesn't begin to describe the handling then.....
I can understand how a car that requires finesse to toss around is a blast to drive - I've had a couple (both Camaros, '79 and '84 - and only the 305 motors. But my '79 was a four speed manual - awesome) - not the most powerful out there, but still plenty capable. I've also driven numerous Vettes of various years, as well as some hot 'Stangs, one would kick the **** out of any Vette. They were damn fun when I was younger, and who wouldn't want a nice brute LS1 (without the computerized "safety nets") for romping on. But as a daily driver or commuter car, these GMs really didn't treat their owners to anything other than horsepower, with LOTS of sacrifices to get it. I mean - where's yours now? Why don't you own one anymore? That's really my point.
Not to get into a huge debate about the topic, because I think we're mostly in agreement here; but the F-bodies outgrew themselves. They were no longer "cheap power", as a top-equipped model could easily push $30k - "kids" weren't buying them anymore as they became too expensive to own and insure. Older folks needed more practicality or looked for more "class". And the import scene was definitely a nail in the coffin of Camaro and 'Tweety Bird".
It was time for them to go - but I think GM needs to step up to the plate and create some viable replacements. I'd love to see a new platform - but a smaller car, one that can truly handle well. It's a real feat to get a 3500 lb car to really handle, thus the price tag of the Vette. Shave off 700 or 800 lbs and things can be a lot more fun at a reasonable price. And a powerful V6 is a fine trade off for the big V8s - you can get gobs of power in small car with a well-tuned 6. ****, Honda and Subaru get 240 and 227 HP respectively out of FOURS - and the Honda has NO forced induction (S2000)!!
I mean, besides a $50k Vette, what else does GM offer that can be considered a true sports car? Make a tight car that fits tight budgets, and they'll have a winner. IMHO, the "new" GTO just ain't the ticket.
~HH
formerly chastan
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,350
From: California, USA
That's funny, I liked the look of the Pontiac WS6 better than the camaros.
I think they needed to try and sell the cars with brighter colors!! Honestly most of them were that ugly green!! Get something bright and shiny like the mustang's have and it would be much more appealing
I think they needed to try and sell the cars with brighter colors!! Honestly most of them were that ugly green!! Get something bright and shiny like the mustang's have and it would be much more appealing
Salt addict
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,201
From: Niagara Falls Ont.
I've driven a few 4th gen f bodies, of the different drivetrain configs, auto, manual, 6cyl, 8 cyl. The only thing any good was the straightline acceleration, and even though I like Mustangs better, I liked the raw power from them. I'm glad that they're gone now. I've heard many a horror story about the reliability issues with those things. And seen many in the service dept at the dealership I used to work at. As far as the interior goes, despite the fact that there was AC, cd player and so on, the interior was very spartan in terms of comfort, and quietness, not that I really mind a loud engine roar. That Holden monaro will probably sell really good for about a year or two and then be gone within five years after that. I also noticed that the side profile looks alot like the current Monte Carlo, just look, you'll see what I mean. But thats o.k. because in a few years G.M. will 'bring back'' the Camaro and Firebird, with a v6 and front wheel drive.
As my final statement, I'd like to say that the reason Camaro and Firebird sales lagged is due to the near extinction of the mullet.
As my final statement, I'd like to say that the reason Camaro and Firebird sales lagged is due to the near extinction of the mullet.
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