carguycw

Howdy all,

It has occurred to me that if I'm going to run my 99 ES in H Stock next year, there might be a problem with shocks. I'd like to get some Tokico Illuminas once they come out (soon, hopefully) but the Racing Beat website says that the shocks will include the reinforced swaybar endlink mount from the MP3.

Using these shocks on my car will technically be a violation of Rule 13.5.B of the SCCA Solo II rules ("The mounting hardware shall be the original type") because the MP3's reinforced swaybar endlink mount is different than the stock 99 mount. Under current rules, non-MP3 Proteges and P5's can ONLY be able to use Mazdaspeed shocks because of the MP3 swaybar mount, and vice versa- MP3 owners cannot use Mazdaspeeds.

The idea is this: start a letter-writing campaign to the SCAC and ask for an allowance in the 2003 rulebook to allow alternate swaybar mounts and steering arms if they're integral with the shock, provided that the *geometry* of the part is identical to the OEM shocks.

Since an increasing number of cars use integral steering arms and/or swaybar mounts (I'm thinking of the new Civic/RSX here) I think this rule is a good idea. It will prevent namby-pamby protests of an item that has nothing to do with performance.

Any thoughts?

Jas00x

No big deal.
First of all- if you don't raise any red flags- no one will notice

I don't forsee that as being a problem. Yes, technically it's against the rules, but there are alot of aftermarket shocks that may vary in someway or another from an actual stock part. On the front, all swaybar-related items are open so thats OK. For the rear- as long as you use the same mounting hardware (and stock swaybar) I can't see that as an issue. It doesn't give you any real performance advantage, so I don't think it would be valid grounds for a protest.
Typically Tokico's haven't been that great as Autocross shocks- usually you want something that can be rebuilt or revalved- like a Koni or Bilstein. Are the Tokico Brand shocks supposed to be stiffer than the MazdaSpeeds?
Also- make sure the rear shock adjuster is at the bottom of the shock so you can adjust the shock without taking apart the rear seatbealt

Are you planning on racing at Nationals this year? It would be nice to see some more Protege's at the big events.

Later,

carguycw

Yeah, I know that many aftermarket shocks are often not 100% identical to the stock parts, and they aren't illegal until somebody protests you. However, I know some people who have been subjected to some pretty questionable protests at Nats. Yes, the exact dimensions of the swaybar brackets will have no effect on performance and everyone knows that, but there IS a rule against adding aftermarket swaybar braces (it's meant for subframe braces like the RB Miata front bar and the Comptech Honda rear bar, but someone might still protest you).

Jas00x

Yeah- I've heard of a guy getting protested for have cuts in his carpet so he could get to his shock adjuster more easily. However, you have to be winning fairly handily, or have some really bad enemy in your class, to get something that petty. The "stock trim" protest gets thrown around alot, espcially with old cars that might be missing some random splash guard or rubber grommet.
Remember issuing a protest costs money-- I think either $50 or $100, plus whatever the bond is. For example, last year Mark Chiles protested specific parts of the engine on Rob Carpenter's CRX. The bond on that was upward of $2000. Rob was found clean, so Mark's $2000 goes to Rob to put his engine back together.
I've been to Nationals for the past 2 years and typically its the "class *******" that is getting protested or doing the protesting. Most racers (99.5%) are simpathetic to issuues that really don't warrent any performance advantage. People that protest for petty stuff develop a reputation and EVERYONE HATES THEM.
If you get protested for the "reinforced mount", which comes that way from Tokico, on your rear shocks- Congradulations!! You've beaten your first "National *******".

To address the issue of make a rule to make this part 100% legal.
The problem with "allowing" this kind of difference, opens it up for development. The next thing you know people are making super-strong, thick, reinforced flanges that make the swaybars adjustable.

In closing, relax, have fun, and drive fast.

carguycw

OK, I had to jump off the computer last time, here's my thoughts on the rest of this stuff...

The reason I'm waiting on Tokicos is (a) they have a warranty and the Mazdaspeeds don't, and (b) they're generally cheaper (for most cars) than the Mazdaspeeds are. ~$175 per corner is more than I want to pay However, I am aware of the adjustability issue- AFAIK all regular Tokico Illuminas adjust at the top of the shock. I was thinking of drilling holes in the rear package shelf to adjust the shocks, but I'm not sure if this will work due to the location of the seatbelts- I will have to check. Do you know?

Basically, I'm looking for cheap adjustable shocks. I'm on a pretty tight racing budget, and I want the adjustability because this car is my only vehicle and I have to move my wife and 2 young kids around when I'm not racing

And no, I'm not planning to go to Nats this year because I'm broke and I have no race tires. I'm hoping to make it next year, but it depends on the budget and how well I think I'll do there- I'm currently still learning how to drive this car. My local competition is Gerry Terranova, so I think local events will be a pretty good barometer of how I'll do at Nats

BTW yes, I'm aware of the whole "National A**hole" issue. I just thought I'd see how some other folks reacted to the idea. Probably the best option is to wait until somebody gets protested for something like this and then work it out

Eric F

Chris, the rear seatbelt tensioners will be in the way of the rear strut adjustments, hole or no hole in the package shelf. It would seem strange that Tokico would put the adjustments on the tops of the rear struts, since they made the MazdaSpeed struts which have the rear adjustments on the strut body via *****.
Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but the MazdaSpeed struts also have reinforced front stabilizer bar mounting points. Actually, from pictures I've seen of the MP3 struts, the MazdaSpeeds look like they're more reinforced in front than the MP3 struts. The rear MazdaSpeed struts have the same mounts as stock though. Go figure?

Jas00x

Be careful buying "cheap" parts to begin with. If you do get serious into racing- you're going to end up buying the expensive stuff anyways. I say save up and buy the good stuff first- that way you don't have to pay double.

If I were you- I'd get the tokico's for the front- and then get something nice for the rear's maybe a custom job with Bilsteins or Koni's. Autocrossing the Protege in HS- the rear shocks make the biggest difference since we can't add a rear sway bar- so you HAVE to get the rear shocks valved more aggressively to compensate for the smaller swaybar. Investing in good, rebuildable, revalvable rear shocks will pay off in the long run- TRUST ME!
If you need adjustablity- go with the Koni's and ProParts can make em for you. If you want Bilsteins (don't need adjustability)- go to AWR and tell 'em you want Jason Minehart's setup- though I warn you they are VERY STIFF. The custom Bilsteins should run you about $300 a piece if I remember correctly.

On the front, the shocks can be a little softer, because you can increase the size of the sway bar (though I think a big front bar would cause more wheelspin).

How fast do you want to be

Good Luck

carguycw

Actually, the whole Stock-class idea may be ditched anyway because I'm considering playing in STS instead. I only make it to 6-8 races a year, so I'm not sure about going totally hardcore to win in HS. Besides, I've been running in the local Street Tire class for a couple of years and it's kinda nice not having to change tires at every event

I'm not really expecting to win at Nationals, so I've been thinking that it might be more fun to tune the car with some cheap speed parts (like an AWR rear swaybar and OEM MP3 shocks, $405/set) and some good dual-purpose street tires and leave the $300 custom-valved Bilsteins and Hoosier race tires to folks with more money and more time

cfbjr

It's completely rediculous that there is a discussion about buying custom valved Bilstien shocks to compete in STOCK class! And that someone says I'll leave stock class for the guys with more money and time. I'm almost certain that was not the original idea when they created the stock class. I think it only underscores the thought that creating more rules only opens them up for more exploitation.

Jas00x

I know it really does sound kinda crazy, but typically, stock class attracts a more competitive crowd. As a result people are willing to push the rules as far as they can- Especially at a National Level of competition. You always want the best equipment you can buy to be the most compitive- its like that in any sport.

People spend MUCH more than $300 a shock for stock-class cars since that is the only suspension part you can change (besides the front swaybar). I've heard of someone spending as much as $5000 for a set of double adjustable shocks (Koni's from ProParts) for their stock class car (honda S2000 i think). And the shocks make a Huge Difference- especially if you know how to use them- so generally those people win.

Now, I don't mean to scare anyone away from autocrossing in stock class, this type of "commitment" is usually only with the national competitors, so usually you can drive very competitively in your region with minimal car preparation, and good driving skills. In Carguy's case- I think he is in the same local region as the past 2 year H Stock National Champion. So you can imagine the amount of work he'd have to do to keep up (or to win)
Typically STS cheaper alternative. Although you are allowed many more parts- the costs of springs and swaybars and off the shelf shocks is much less than the high-dollar shocks used on stock-class cars. Another off setting cost is the price of race tires used in Stock Class vs the Street Tires used in STS.
And like he said, he'd rather have fun tuning the car and fixing it up a little at a time, then try to compete with the National Champion every time he raced.

Still, at a National Level, STS cars are also prepared to the T. Jesse's a good example of what a good driver can do with a minimally prepared car in STS. At the Local events he always finishes top 3 in class (with good competition), and at the National events he's been middle of the pack.

If you think Autocrossing is expensive, go to a Stereo Contest or Car show and ask those guys how much they are spending- and they don't even drive their cars!! Sure its rediculous! But thats what makes it so fun

Later-

cfbjr

The debate about the stock class shock rules continues to just go on forever. I have not been autocrossing for what I would consider to be a long time but I find it unnerving that stock class is advertised as the class for everyone to come out and bring their daily driver type car out and have some fun. The SCCA makes it seem like this is the class to be competitive in if you have done no mods to your car and that they make it fair by putting cars into classes based on performance potential, power to weight, etc. It's ironic that when you show up to race in your regular old car that you drive everyday you find out all these guys you are supposed to be competitive against are running special race tires and fancy adjustable shocks. While I don't worry about the adjustable shocks too much because I have a car that came stock with good shocks to begin with it really sucked to have to buy those extra rims and tires. I have been tempted at times to just enter STS and compete there in my stock MP3 because I would have been more competitive there than in stock just because of the tire advantage. I was consistently a second or less behind the best in GS before I got my V700's. The first race after I got them I was a second or two faster than the best and they now are worried they'll have to spend a bunch of money on shocks so they might be able to keep up with me. It's not fair for that person either that the "stock" class is where they money race takes place. Then people wonder why more folks don't show up. Ever notice how many times you see a new guy once then they never show up again? Do you think it's because autocross is no fun or because they can see that if they don't spend the cash they'll never be competitive? The only thing that should keep you from being competitive in stock is your driving skill.

Kevin McCormick

The stock shock rules will continue to be debated until the cows come home, cook dinner, watch Leno, and go back to their fields.

Below are many of the questions that come up with this whole shock debate - Not directed to you personally, Carson.

The MP3 comes with decent shocks - not as good as my or Jason's ES. Are we SOL?

What happens when your shocks wear out - do you _have_ to replace them with the factory ones? What about on older cars ('89 CRX si, for example) where there are no more factory ones? What about when after market (Koni, etc.) are cheaper?

In Showroom Stock road racing (which now allow outrageous trunk kits on some cars - even Protege's, heh.) it's been shown that people will modify factory shocks that cannot be verified visually.

I know, I know, this is for only the cutthroat serious competitors. But I just want to point out that there are issues with stock only shocks.

Certainly you are right that 80-90% is the driver. Of which you did pretty dang well last weekend (Carson happens to be in Sacto as well :-)

To show my hand in this, yes, we _do_ have double adjustable Koni's on the Type-R - about $400 each including the shock, revalving, and conversion to double adjustable. If I were to do it again, I would simply have them revalved - the extra adjustment just gives you more room to hang yourself. Except for the cost, we wouldn't mind going back to factory shocks - they're pretty, just expensive. Other cars would be a not-fun nightmare.

Let's not get into the whole swaybar allowance. Ony my old GTI, a BFB (big front bar) worked wonders. On the Type-R we tried a smaller one, but the car was too sloppy/slow in slaloms. For Jason, I would think that a small one would help with the wheelspin.

Kevin M.
'00 ES
'97 Type-R

carguycw

I like the way you say that

FWIW, here's my $0.02 on the shock issue. I understand why some people have a problem with the shock rule. However, there are a couple of points to make.

First: as Kevin said, no matter how restrictive you write the rules, someone will find some way to spend lots of money on car setup, even if it only makes 1/10 of 1% of a difference. And I agree with Kevin that requiring 100% stock parts is inherently unfair.

However, this leads to my second point: for every car with some $1200 exotic custom shocks, I will show you someone who can win driving a beater outfitted with cheap off-the-shelf stuff. Case in point is Gerry Terranova, the H Stock champ, who races the very same 89 Civic Si he's always raced as long as I've known him (about 7 years). It currently has 220k+ miles on it and features a refreshing lack of *anything* that can be described as a trick part. It is simply a well-used, well-maintained car with a GREAT driver.

Conclusion: just go out and have fun. Drive what makes you happy. That's what I intend to do, and I often think that STS more closely matches what I want to drive. If you're absolutely determined to win in autox, just remember that driving skill matters more than almost everything else put together. Just relax and drive fast. YMMV

cfbjr

Thanks Kevin. Coming from you that's a big compliment!
I understand how it can be difficult to find or to even buy OEM shocks because they cost more than aftermarket. I guess the part that bugs me is that they are getting replaced with something that is adjustable on a car that did not originally come with adjustable shocks. Additionally, many folks aren't just replacing their shocks simply because they are worn out, but to make their cars better than they are stock. I'm sure there are plenty of fine replacement shocks that are not adjustable that Civic Si drivers can purchase. But I guess getting rid of the adjustability doesn't keep you from making your shocks better by just revalving them.
And hey, it's not like I'm going to take the high road and not do things that make me more competitive just because I disagree with some allowances.
I just worry about it being discouraging for newbies. It bothered me that to be competitive I had to buy an extra set of wheels and race tires, but not that much, because I like having excuses to buy things!
Can I switch the subject just briefly and ask Kevin to give us a clue as to how to start doing the left foot braking thing? I either overdo it or scare the hell out of myself because I don't get enough brake. I'm sure it has something to do with practice, but are there some "drills" I can do to help build up the skill?

cfbjr

One more completely off topic. SORRY!
Kevin, who does good alignments here is Sacramento?