btaira

I just started autocrossing and need some driving tips to improve my time.

First time out. Car: 92 Protege LX, stock springs, original shocks (135,000 miles), Dunlop D60 A2, 185/60/14 all around

Result: (1) car understeered heavily around tight corners (2) rear end came around when braking into the corners (is this trail braking?)

2nd time out. (1) replaced front tires with Falken Azenis 195/60/14 and (2) tighted rear sway bar end links as tight as they would go.

Result: (1) much less understeer (2) enormous amount of off throttle oversteer through the slalom and entering turns

Questions:

(1) Is this off throttle oversteer desirable for skilled drivers? I must say it is a little scary. It kept me from being as aggressive as I normally would be. Can/should I also tighted front sway bar endlinks to reduce this effect? Or should I put Azenis tires in the back too? Or both? Keep in mind I have limited funds.

(2) I just ordered ZX2 S/R struts. How will they affect handling?

(3) Would handling be substantially better if I replaced both stuts and springs vs. struts only? (I realized this would put me in a different class).

mazdaspeedwest

Post moved to appropriate discussion forum.
thank you.

mazdaspeedwest

jmauld

Good job on getting to your first autocross! Looks like you've got a good idea of where to start, and good recognition of what the car is doing.

I'm going to base my opinion on what you should on the fact that you said you have limited funds.

***These are all recommendations for beginners, if you're experienced then stick with whatever works for you.**

Do whatever you're going to do to the car BEFORE you start running and don't make any big changes between runs. Playing with tire pressures is okay, but don't change tires.

Run the same tires at each end of the car. With two different types of tires you have too many variables coming into play. Is doesn't matter if you get good tires or bad tires as long as they are the same thing on each end.

Don't set the car up for a lot of oversteer. Yes it's desired at higher levels, but it's just much easier to start out with a car that's easier to drive. That way you can pay more attention to the most important variable, "yourself". And the cars are "generally" easier to read at decreased levels of handling.

When you do make changes. Only make ONE relevant change at a time! Don't combine them, then you can't tell what did what.

For your last question, handling would be better with both springs and struts, for a beginner with limited funds stick with just the struts. You'll have more fun when you get to the point that you start outrunning modified cars with a mostly stock car!

btaira

Mazdaspeedwest,
Thanks for the tips. I certainly can use it. Your hunch is correct, urethane bushings are not allowed in stock class (at least not in the rear). You are also correct about the rear end wanting to come loose even in stock set-up. I first time I autocrossed (Dec. 2001) (with the rear sway tightened to the factory setting [not very tight]), I did get a small amount of off throttle oversteer through the slalom. Now, having tightened the end links down about a whole inch, the rear is very loose.

Incidently, YOU are the reason I am a little poorer today! If it wasn't for your exellent instructions on installing the ZX2 struts, I wouldn't have even heard of them.

Jmauld,
Thank you for your tips also. Incidentally, my "first time out" was a month before my "2nd time out." I wasn't making tire changes between runs. Sorry for not being clear.

Can anyone recommend a good book on autocross driving tips (for front wheel drive cars)?

jmauld

oh okay, that makes more sense now! :-)

I would recommend, Secrets of SOLO RACING, by Henry A. Watts. He doesn't get into specifics of FWD handling, but it's a great book anyway, and fairly cheap at only $15.

Poly swaybar bushings aren't allowed in stock class. just FYI.

From someone who did it backwards, spend the money on yourself first, and then on the car.

Stock class mods:
Cat-back exhaust
Any replacement airfilter
Front swaybar
Race Tires

"maybe a few others"?? I have never ran a car in stock class. :-)

btaira

PseudoRealityX,
Alignment! Exellent suggestion. I'll get that done as soon as I install the new struts. Where can I find some good suggested alignment numbers (1st gen. protege, stock ride height) for an autocross beginner? I do not want too much static negative camber as I cannot afford to get new tires too often. Can anyone recommend a good alignment place in San Diego? Should I limit my search to shop that specialize in modified cars? Finally, while I know that camber and toe in are adjustable, is caster also adjustable?

carguycw

OK, I agree with just about everything that everyone has said here, but here's my vote:

1) Put the D60A2's back on the front. Learn to reduce understeer by *driving*, not by playing around with car setup. Worry about that later. "Severe" understeer problems on novice-driven vehicles are usually caused by a combination of excessively sudden steering input and carrying too much speed into corners. Races are won coming *out* of corners, not going into them. Slow down your corner entry and concentrate on accelerating out.

2) Sudden changes in cornering behavior during transitions can often be caused by excessively worn stock struts. Get the ZX2 struts and your car's behavior in fast transitions should become much more predictable.

3) Get an alignment! For a novice driven car, I recommend 1/16" toe out front and 1/16" toe in rear. This should help keep the rear end behind the front.

4) Whatever you're doing to the rear swaybar, stop! It is illegal in Stock class to mess with the rear bar, and it may be causing handling problems. Put it back the way it was.

FWIW

Davard

I agree with the need for 4 equal tires. And seat time. Hit as many practices as you can afford. Have other more experienced drivers drive your car (with you in it) and ride with them in their cars.

You can also hit some of the events in LA, as there are now 3 Proteges (OK, one is a '92 EGT) racing up here, with a fourth that we're trying to convince (it took us at least 6 months to get Mazdaspeedwest out, and one ride to hook him).

The next practice is Feb 16th at California Speedway (an easy 2 hour or less drive from Qualcomm), with an event the following day. So, if you're in the neighborhood, drop by (look for the EZ-up on the side-hill).

SilverPR5

Yeah most of us will agree when you brake you should brake in a straight line before the turn. Braking while in a turn shoves the weight of the car forward lifting the rear causing brake oversteer.

For most FWD cars I recommend 42psi front and 39-40 psi rear to start. If you are still getting understeer drop the rear pressure by 1lb.

carguycw

<snip>

OK, just to address this question specifically:

No, excessive oversteer is not generally a good thing. However, a little bit will help the car rotate in turns. How much is a "little bit" and how much is "excessive" is largely a matter of driver preference.

However, it is not necessarily true that more oversteer is more "desirable for skilled drivers". The nice thing about understeer is that it adds stability in autocross situations. The average autocross involves so many fast changes in direction that you generally want to set up the car to be predictable when changing direction, even if you sacrifice a little bit of ultimate cornering grip. If the back end is too loose, you will spend your entire time trying to gather up the car- and yes, it is a "little scary"

I guess the main point of this post is to beg you NOT to make the common novice mistake of trying to fix your "severe understeer problem" by setting up the car to oversteer in all situations. Almost all understeer problems on newbie-driven cars are driver induced.

Good story: a relatively inexperienced autocrosser I knew a while back tried to solve his "understeer problem" on his Fox3 Mustang by setting the car up to oversteer. Suddenly, he was complaining that his car had no grip in slaloms and coming out of corners (yes, it was RWD, but bear with me). One day, he hands the car to a multiple-time National trophy winning driver from the area. He drives the car, demolishes a few cones, and comes back saying "Holy crap, that car is so loose it's almost undriveable!" Then he unhooks the rear swaybar, takes another run, and demolishes his previous time- and tells the novice to leave it like that and learn to use his brakes and steer more smoothly. Don't let this be you

btaira

Everybody, thanks for the responses. Keep them coming - I'll take all the help I can get. My wife can't believe how helpful everyone is.

Also, now that I have toe in/toe out numbers, can anyone recommend camber numbers (front and rear).

On a side note, my wife has a 98 passat V6 with HR Springs (OE), Bilstein shocks and an Autotech rear sway bar. Our stock protege is much more fun to drive. It is ever more fun than our old 88 Saab 900S. Everyone, good choice of car!