Ford owns 31% of Mazda
 

I just saw this thing on tv about "20th century Ford" whatever, and the Ford guy said they owned Mazda 31%. And they own Jaguar and Aston Martin 100%, but that's not important.

Anybody else can confirm this?

They also own Land Rover and Volvo (cars). Kind of explains why the MPV, Tribute, and 6 all use variations of the Duratec V-6 (also used in Jaguar and Aston Martin, as a V-12).

But back to the original question: Yes, Ford has owned a part of Mazda since the 70's, increasing it's stake in the 90's (although I thought it was 34%).

yea, I thought it was more...I was a bit shocked that it was only 31...and yea, I didnt mantion Land Rover and the other one(s)

It is around 34% and under Japanese law, that is enough for a single shareholder to have controlling interest.

This is common knowledge. Ford owns enough of Mazda to maintain a controlling interest. Fortunately, however, Ford hasn't seen fit to completely dominate Mazda's operations; in the sense that they start shoving all Ford parts into "Mazda's" vehicles. They've done that for some of Mazda's cars: Tribute and B-Series trucks. But other than that Mazda has either mostly or completely been the one who designed and built their other models.

And one other thing to notice: The Protege, Protege5, Miata, 626, and MPV (which is based on the 626) were all designed and built by Mazda. They're extremely reliable vehicles. The Tribute and B-Series trucks were designed and built by Ford. They're well documented as horrible in reliability. Coincidence? I think not.

More proof of Ford's pathetic, dishonorable practices is with Volvo, a formerly Swedish auto maker that used to make reliable cars. The Volvo S80, for instance, makes use of extensive Ford parts, including the engine. The S80 is among the least reliable cars you can buy.

The Japanese maintain a culture that values honor and respect. Mazda should be ashamed about their association with Ford, as 'the Blue Oval' doesn't built vehicles, as a whole, that deliver a fair value to their customers. Indeed, when you buy a Ford you're getting bent over and violated in the most despicable of ways.

The true test of Mazda's future ways is going to be seen in how the Mazda6 holds up in reliability. I'm hopeful, but it's hard to not get a little dubious when Ford even touches an auto maker. Aside from the financial help Ford can render, their having ANY influence on Mazda is definitively a BAD thing.

And oh yeah, many of you may know that the upscape trim Mazda6 makes use of the Ford Duratec V-6 engine. How much anyone wanna bet this engine will prove LESS reliable than the new 4 banger that Mazda is putting in the lower trim 6? The 4 was developed exclusively by Mazda. I'll be laughing when the data comes out further demonstrating Ford's incompetence.

you must be smoking crack...Ford brought Mazda back from the brink of disaster..Ford does make reliable,popular vehicles..I am a big Mazda enthusiast and think that their products are better than Fords...but for Mazda to be ashamed of their relationship with Ford is rediculous...as far as the MPV goes...if it is documented as an unreliable vehicle it is based on the Mazda V6...they JUST started putting the duratec V6 in them because everyone screamed it lacked for power...it used to be powered by a Mazda K series 2.5L V6...also the relationship greatly benefits Ford as Mazda will be building almost all of fords 4 cyl engines now,and most of the trannies(if not all) to go with them....I could go on forever but I dont think it is necessary...but I will leave you with this...If it werent for Ford basically putting Mazda on their backs and carrying them(fiancially) thru the 90's...then Mazda would be bankrupt right now...so thank you lucky stars for Ford or you wouldnt even have your protege

Let me make it very clear for you...
 

You boys need some insight........too many of you are too naive of facts and simply bash Ford for lack of understanding.

I work for Ford Company and let me give you the facts Ford owns 100% Lincoln, Mercury, Volvo Cars, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, and a 33.4% (controlling stake of Mazda). Sure Ford has had issues with people bitching about the quality and reliablity of their vehicles. My personal take on it is simply that Ford is just so big that it's an easy target to attack. I own two Ford vehicles (both with NO serious problems - I still drive my 1990 Topaz with 230,000 kms and going!), and I recently bought a Protege5 so you cannot say I am biased in my opinions.

As for Ford itself, they have a ton of cash which they use to aid its other brands. Mazda would not be where it is today without the help of Ford. Consider this... does Mazda have a decent 6 cylinder engine? NO! The V6 Tribute uses a Ford engine, the MPV uses the 200 HP Windstar engine, and the upcoming Mazda6 will use a modified version of Ford's Duratec engine. Also, look at the Mazda B-Series truck which is essentially a Ford Ranger. Why is it the best selling import truck?... quite simple.. a Ford engine.

Also, several years ago, Jaguar Cars was at the point of going belly up. In comes Ford to pump in some cash and improve quality while maintaining Jaguar's prestige brand image.

Now... let me run some numbers by some of you less informed individuals out there who love your rice. These numbers speak the truth. These numbers tell you the real story. These numbers tell you that you should be PROUD to have a big daddy like Ford Motor Company looking out for Mazda.

#1 selling car on the planet - Ford Focus
#1 selling vehicle in the U.S. - Ford F-Series
#1 selling mid size SUV in U.S. - Ford Explorer
#1 selling compact pickup truck - Ford Ranger
#1 selling full size van - Ford Econoline

These are just a few numbers..... The sales tell the story. People buy Ford because they offer quality, reliably and value. Sure some models might be boring and dull (Taurus), but don't question their reliablity and safety.

So I'm bigging up Ford like crazy... and you might ask.... why did you buy a P5?... well I would have go the MUSTANG GT Convertible, but I couldn't afford the insurance. I would have got the SVT Focus, but it wasn't available when I got the P5. Bottom line is that Ford knows what it's doing and it pisses me off when I see ignorance speaking through its ass.

GO FORD!

Which car in Ford's line up uses the 2.9 liter inline 6 that is in the S80??


And by the way, carpoint.com rates the S80 5 out of 5 for reliability.

Re: Let me make it very clear for you...
 

:bsflag:


one has got to remember that the planet is a little bigger than just North America;)

No, sorry. When the current generation MPV first came out, it used the 2.5L Duratec V6 from the now defunct Contour and Cougar. It never had the K series engine

It currently uses the same 3.0 Duratec V6 that is found in the Tribute. IT doesn't, as someone else said, use the engine found in the Windstar.

Re: Let me make it very clear for you...
 

The base B-series and Ranger now use a Mazda engineered engine, my friend.

I Think Not
 

Ford synonymous with quality!? Ha ha ha! Ha ha! That's a good one.

Explain this, Genius!

Association with Ford IS shameful.

Lest you forget the explosive Ford Pinto. Great car, eh? Lest you forget the Ford Crown Victoria, noted by Police departments as also explosive and unsafe. Lest you forget the Ford Bronco and Bronco II, which has serious roll over problems. Lest you forget the Ford Explorer, which also poses a serious roll over risk. An obvious fix for such a problem, as even Ford engineers suggested, was to widen the wheel base of these defective vehicles. Ford refused to do so, and only with the latest design of the Explorer have they made this vehicle safer. Lest you forget that Ford was responsible for building the least responsible vehicle ever made, the Ford Excursion.

There isn't a single vehicle in Ford's ENTIRE lineup that presents excellent reliability. Not one. And your beloved best selling Ford Focus? It might well be the WORST car you can currently buy in terms of it's reliability. Refer to the link noted above to refresh your memory on this note.

Ford's SOLE worth in its association with Mazda, as I *already* said, was its infusion of cash. It might help in terms of diversifying model line ups by cosmetically rebadging a Ford car and calling it as a Mazda, but that holds NO worth in terms of reliability.

And oh yeah, being a best selling car DOES NOT always demonstrate that it's a good vehicle. The Focus sells well because its reasonably priced, it's quiet, rides well, and because, as a whole, people are idiots when it comes to understanding the value of a reliable car by virtue of their utter lack of pre-sale research into the issue. Lest we forget that Ford has MASSIVE marketing money to fool the ignorant masses into thinking that Ford is worth their hard earned money. Do you think the Focus is worth people's hard earned money? Tell that to the 572,795+ people Ford has screwed with this weak car. Or perhaps you should tell that to several thousand of the 70,000 SUV roll over accidents that will happen in the next year. Tens of thousands of those will be in good 'ol Ford vehicles.

Only a Ford insider with something to gain from company loyalty could even think Ford is worthy of our trust and praise.

Talk to someone from Toyota. THAT'S an honorable company.

Re: Re: Let me make it very clear for you...
 

Nope. Still the same old Pinto motor, just refined and taken out to 2.5L.

And as someone pointed out, the Windstar uses a 90 degree V-6, while the MPV uses the 60 degree V-6 out of first the Contour, and now the Taurus.

The Duratec V-6 is a pretty widely used engine. In various states, it is used in the Contour, Taurus, Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-type and X-type, Mazda MPV, Tribute, and 6. Of course, the Lincoln, Jag, and 6 use different heads and intake.

Ford owns 54.8% of me
40 hours a week 23.8%
plus 31% of my car

and ya, i work with the company...and if any1 is watching there GREAT...:D

remember what happened with that one guy on this board (sorry for forgetting who u were) and honda i believe it was?

-Jason

me thinks someone has a vendetta...did the poor baby buy an old ford pinto and it broke down...awwww:crying: ...EVERY car company has had quality issues with some of its vehicles...Toyota recently recalled 397,000 vehicles because of faulty brake lines that may cause brake failure....Honda recently recalled 968,000 Accords due to faulty wiring...Nissan still has an on going campaign on a fuel injector recall on every V6 vehicle from 1984 thru 1989...it caused the engine to catch fire because of a fuel leak....Gm recently recalled 280,000 Cadillacs(their pinnacle of quality)...it happens all over the industry...Ford builds the best Full Size Truck on the market and has for over 25 years....I've heard of no probs on a Lincolns,and the Escort since the stopped using the Mazda engine has been great..the Mustang has been a great car for years in terms of reliability..but according to the previous equation no manufacturer equates quality...put that in your pipe and smoke it

Ford builds the best full size truck on the market? Did GM just somehow drop off the face of the planet? Because the Sierra and Silverado are better trucks hands down. Their midsize and compact vehicles suck but you cannot trash the full size vehicles. They have been as reliable or more reliable than the F-series for decades.

Kind of like the elections yesterday. Just because a bunch of people line up and buy your BS doesn't mean its better than the other guys.

And the S80 has been around for awhile in its current form. Before Ford even had a hand in Volvo. The S60 is the only car even close to showing Ford influence (and very little at that). So I'm wondering where you get off trashing a good car?

One more thing.... the first thing Ford did with Jaguar was to get rid of those unreliable old V12 engines. Jaguar has not had a new V12 since Ford took control. That is why the XJ220 bombed. It was supposed to have a V12, Ford took over and replaced it with a twin-turbo six. Instant suicide, lots of those still sitting in a warehouse in the UK.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me make it very clear for you...
 

Wow, when did that happen? Tells you how much attention I pay to Ranger pickups.:) Or at least the 4-cyl variety. :) Funny that they finally got a respectable 4-cyl engine....From Mazda.:D Previous 4-cyl Rangers were underwhelming at best, although they work pretty well for powering hydraulic pumps (I put one together for the '91 Cal Poly Rose Parade Float entry).

you wait when that 6.0 powerstroke diesel for the F250 hit the streets boys and girls and that MACH1 with a hood shaker, my dealership will be packed w/ people wanting to buy these vehicles...that means big paycheck!!!!

just opened a cold one....ahhhh

Okay, you got me on that one. My point was that the current generation MPV (2000-present) never used a Mazda K-series engine, and that it originally had a 2.5 Duratec and now has a 3.0 Duratec.

I just assumed the 2.5 was the same as the one in the Contour, and the 3.0 from the Taurus, Escape, Tribute, etc.

The Volvo S80 Blows
 

The Volvo S80 yields the worst possible reliability you can find in a vehicle. THAT’S where I “get off” trashing a “good” car. If you care nothing about getting ripped off by poor quality, be my guest, go ahead and love such a vehicle.

Regarding Toyota, their association with GM has indeed been despicable, but only because it taints Toyota to be involved with a company such as GM, which I consider on par with the likes of paltry Ford. The reasons for this association I believe to be, one, because Toyota is providing humanitarian relief for GM-- GM was getting their ass kicked in the 80’s and Toyota didn’t want an image of having been the one to destroy an American manufacturer; especially given that Toyota relies on U.S. good relations to do well in their own business and sell their vehicles in this country. Secondly, it provided Toyota with comparatively cheap, pre-built manufacturing facilities in the United States.

And regarding quality, despite what naysayers wish to spout, the newer Chevy Nova and Geo/Chevrolet Prizm were *excellent* cars in terms of reliability, and the reason for that was solely because of Toyota’s involvement. Further, out of *17* vehicles consisting of Toyota’s ENTIRE line up, there is only one (1) that delivers reliability lower than ‘better than average’; the RAV4, which is Average in reliability. You don't EVEN want to try and compare pathetic Ford to Toyota's across the board quality. Such a comparison is utterly, utterly laughable. And trying to compare Mazda designed vehicles vs. Ford's (which includes the crappy Tribute)? Again, there's no comparison. Ford is left behind.

Regarding responsibility? Toyota was the first to mass produce a hybrid vehicle, and last month they announced their plans to make their ENTIRE fleet of offered vehicles hybrids in the next 10 years.

THAT’S what an honorable company does. They provide consistent quality across their ENTIRE product line, and they acknowledge their responsibility in working to produce efficient, less polluting transportation. THAT’S Toyota.

Question: Is Ford selling even a hybrid vehicle? Gee, let's see, that would be, NO. Do you think, as a "sales leader in the world" they might have the resources to build and sell a responsible vehicle? Yes. Do they? NO. How about GM? Even a hybrid? NO.

Mazda's association with Ford is shameful, if quite admittedly necessary to survive.

Shove that in YOUR pipe and smoke it. :)

HERE ARE THE FACTS!
 

ProtegeMaster and all of you other naive people... you thoughts and opinions are based on heresay not fact. I am not saying that Ford Motor Company (FMC) is #1 when it comes to quality. Fact is Honda and Toyota do better in quality than any other domestic manufacturer according to J.D. Power Initial Quality Studies. But does that mean that FMC is pure garbage? NO, that is not a fair assessment. I agree that Ford has suffered in the past couple of years in terms of their quality with several recalls and some other annoying issues. But, let me tell you that things are on a complete rebound, and you will see the results in subsequent J.D. Power studies. For those of you that are not familiar with J.D Power, they are the industry standard when it comes to test of quality across all automobile manufacturers.

Now that let's move on to the facts. From an Oct 8/2002 press release, J.D. Power presented it's APEAL rankings. The 2002 APEAL Study is based on responses from more than 117,800 new-vehicle owners and comprises eight specific areas of vehicle performance and design that identify what consumers like and dislike about their new vehicles during the first 90 days of ownership. These areas are: vehicle exterior styling; engine and transmission; comfort and convenience; ride, handling and braking; seats; heating, ventilation and cooling; cockpit and instrument panel; and sound system. The study is in its seventh year. The results? see below:

----------------------------------------------------------------
(http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/pre...asp?ID=2002105)

J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Three Highly Anticipated New Vehicles Top APEAL Rankings


Ford Motor Company Models Top Rankings in Five Segments

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: October 8, 2002


WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.-From one of the largest models on the market to one of the smallest, some highly anticipated new vehicles are succeeding in eliciting the kind of reaction automakers are seeking, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) StudySM released today.

The all-new MINI Cooper, Cadillac Escalade EXT and Ford Thunderbird capture top segment rankings in the study, which measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. In all, the study finds that 26 of the 31 all-new launches and redesigns meet or exceed the average performance of their respective segments.

"Radical designs and concepts are paying off," said Brian Walters, director of product research at J.D. Power and Associates. "Manufacturers that are willing to take bold risks with revolutionary concepts and bring them to fruition are creating new icons that are proving to be very popular."

Ford and Lincoln brands rank highest in five APEAL segments. American Honda, General Motors and Toyota Motor Sales brands each receive three top segment rankings.

"Ford's achievement is crowned by the Thunderbird's impressive debut," said Walters. "Along with topping the competitive entry luxury car segment in APEAL, the Thunderbird also ranked highest in its segment in our Initial Quality Study earlier this year. This is an exceptional achievement for a vehicle in its first year of production."

----------------------------------------------------------------

I am not doubting that Toyota does consistently well in initial quality studies, but there are more to cars than just quality. Let's face it, Toyota's cars are BORING.... just look at their lineup. Corolla? Echo? Camry?... Great in terms of quality, but they have to emotion, no style, no pizazz... they're simply boxes on wheels. DO you really want to have a parent company like Toyota looking over Mazda? Do you think the MP3 or the Mazdaspeed or even the RX-8 would have evolved through Toyota's pipeline? Highly unlikely. It would also make absolutely no sense whatsoever to have Toyota in charge of Mazda since they are direct competitors with one another. That relationship would simply not work.

In terms of the right mix of automotive passion, style, value, performance, quality, and reliability, nothing can even come close to the brands and models that are currently under Ford Motor Company. I'm not just talking about the infamous "Blue Oval"... there's Jaguar, Aston, Land Rover, Mazda, Lincoln and Volvo too. Who can beat that?

As for the fellow who was talking about the GM trucks?.... well.. all I can tell you my friend is just talk to me in a year when a brand new F-series is launched. I just saw some pics of it today at a meeting and it's going to be unveiled at the Detroit autoshow. All I can say is.. WOW.. best in class performance, looks and a dynamite interior!

And keep in mind:
#1 selling car - Ford Focus
#1 selling SUV - Ford EXplorer
#1 selling pickup - Ford F-Series

There can't be that many stupid people around the world to buy Ford products if they all sucked!

So based on all these FACTS, would you guys really want Mazda looked after by any other company? I don't know about you, but definitely not me!

:D

Re: HERE ARE THE FACTS!
 

Opinion polls are exactly what their name implies: they are not facts.

Given proper marketing strategy and enough $$$, yes, people worldwide, are stupid and will buy anything... and worse yet, believe they have a good product, when in fact, they may not. Facts center about such issues as incidents of mechanical failure; calculated operation costs, correlations of injuries per accident, etc. JD Powers "polls" are worthless BS, based upon owner's impressions - remember, folks, we all filled one out for Mazda, within 1 or 2 months of purchase - way too early to determine, much if anything, regarding somethin as elusive as satisfaction..
And contrary to your suggestion that Ford's quality issues are of the last few years only, try since 1970...

JD POWER studies do have significant merit and unlike what you say, there is empirical proof of data. If you look at the 2002 Initial Quality Survey (not the APEAL study) regarding Things Gone Wrong (TGW), Toyota Motor Corp cleans up in almost every category. And we all know that Toyota makes good quality vehicles. There must be some sort of correlation.

If you want more numbers (FACTS), all you got to do is ask!

FORD is BUILING a HYBRID!!!! due to be released later next year...the hybrid Escape!!!The First Hybrid SUV!! Finally someone is going to make a desireable hybrid...I mean c'mon the Insight--can you say ugly...the Prius...uglier!!!put that in your pipe beeyatch!!!

The PRIUS and INSIGHT are absolute garbage..... would never be seen driving one of those. I wonder why ProtegeMaster never bought a Toyota considering how much he loves them.

IMO......ford has to take care of their 'regular' cars first, then they could go into building a hybrid............

a ford hybrid is a bomb waiting to explode........one will surely Escape......................from earthly life:D

J.D. Powers!? Not Again!
 

This is cool-- I like heated discussion; especially when I'M right! :p

:rolleyes: First off, J.D. Power is a favorite organization of auto makers (including Toyota), because they're an organization supported by the auto industry to try and counteract credible, honest consumer organizations who's sole purpose is the public's better protection (like Consumers Union). J.D. Power has NO worth in their existence-- They're a marketing company who's aim is to, A. Make a buck for itself, and B. Help those who pay them money for their information. They're a for profit company interested in selling to auto makers "studies" that show that particular auto maker in a good light, unbeholden to true reality. Period.
You'll never see any negative publicity regarding ANY vehicle they publish about. Ever.

Whenever someone wants to try and favorably portray an auto company they always whip out the old, transparent (at least to the educated) J.D. Power & Associates garbage. I find that organization worthless, self serving, and condescending to the public's well being. Here’s what it translates to, kiddies: They’re free from moral obligation.

And in terms of selling mass quantities of product serving as an indicator that it's of high quality:

:bsflag:

The public has throughout history been easily fooled into nearly ANY kind of false or unthinkable pretense-- Historical examples of mass stupidity: The early years of IBM PC's-- They were totally inferior to Apple (no graphical user interface, etc.), yet they vastly outsold the Macintosh. Nazi Germany: An entire society was fooled into following a regime that represented inhumanity in the grandest scale, yet they were followed en masse. Please understand I'm not comparing Ford to Nazis by any means; it's just an example of how entire societies can make stupid, even inhuman choices. The mass purchase of cheap, poor quality Ford vehicles is a classic example of success totally independent of quality. The bottom line is people can be shockingly stupid.

But common! Ford MUST be cool because that's what they say on TV, right?

J.D. Power... Fact? The very best they can claim is highly edited, focused, specialized information engineered to make anything look great. That's their job. They have nothing to do with reality in the full picture.

And now back to Toyota. I totally agree with some of your guys' points: Toyota DOES make boring vehicles. So does Honda, now. The Toyota Celica and MR2 are arguably cool, and many of their SUV's are cool, but passenger sedans and the like are boring. The Prius? Ugly; even heinous. *I* think, however, that quality is more important than superficial appearance. So is social/environmental responsibility. Ford has never led in ANY of these areas and I find them most patronizing based thereon. Same with GM.

that's total bulldoodie...Ford was the Company that set the pace for raising fuel economy on Trucks/SUV's by pledging to raise average MPG on all Truck/SUV makes and models...as a matter of fact GM and Toyota were pissed about it....still no comments about how Toyota recalled almost 400,000 vehicles based on faulty brakes...yeah thats honorable..:rolleyes: ...lets put out vehicles when they have faulty brake lines...and Consumer Reports seems to like Ford just fine as far as reliability,so does Road and Track,and Car and Driver....but lets not listen to them...listen to Protegemaster...he knows it all

Re: J.D. Powers!? Not Again!
 

What are you smoking ProtegeMaster?... you have yet to show us any facts about quality, you have yet to explain why you never purchased a totally robust Toyota vehicle.

Now, when it comes to social and environmental quality, you are really smoking some good shit here..... The Big 3 do more for the community and the environment than the other manufacturers. All you have to do is look on their websites and see what their doing.

As for social responsibility... well after Sept 11, who came running to help with vehicles and cash?... it was GM, Ford, and Chrysler.... no one else even came close to helping as much as they did.....

Also as an employee of Ford Motor, we are required to volunteer in the community at least 16 hours a year ON company time.... doesn't that tell you anything about corporate citizenship?

ProtegeMaster, this is a good debate, but I need you to show me some facts as opposed to your one-dimensional, ignorant opinions

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new F-Series coming out. Then the recalls will come. Lots of them. For some reason Ford just seems to love recalls. That and the shitty transmissions they put on the Taurus.

Just a little news flash of the obvious for you. Raising fuel economy is NOT environmentally conscious. The only thing environmentally conscious about raising fuel economy is that less crap gets burned through an exhaust system that could already be LEV or ULEV compliant. Sad how they make all these "special" vehicles to satisfy the California and New York market requirements but won't sell them elsewhere. Honda is the most environmentally conscious automaker out there. All of their vehicles are LEV or better.

Also there are severe statistical abnormalities to the ways both Consumer Union and JD Power collect their data. They cannot have a prayer of even releasing meaningful data the way they collect it.

Further Discussion
 

I think you’ll not find numbers even close to those that Ford recalls each year, compared to Toyota. It is quite true that it’s normal for a certain amount of recalls to happen for any particular make-- What I’m saying is Ford has a disproportionately high number of them.

And, no, no, no! Don’t listen to me! Listen to this:

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3833

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3823

Sing it with me now: “Ele-ven safety recalls… Yeah, yeah… Ele-ven, baby…”

Here’s the Toyota campaign noted in the above post:

http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirc2_20021002.htm

Any other Toyota recalls?

http://www.underhoodservice.com/us/toyota.htm

Let’s also check out Ford’s other recall campaigns by the numbers!

http://www.underhoodservice.com/us/ford.htm

So if Toyota is guilty, and thereby not honorable, of recall campaigns numbering 2-10 vs. Ford, what does that make Ford? The Devil incarnate? Super duper, extra special dishonorable guys? I see no comparison whatsoever. Ford is so stunningly far ahead of Toyota that anyone attempting to draw similar conclusions is clearly nonsensical.

By all means, I strongly encourage ALL to listen to Consumer Union, NOT me. Pick up a copy of the 2002 Cars issue of CR. In it, you’ll see quite clearly that my sentiments for Ford are quite well supported by the factual data on hand. Don’t EVEN try to compare Ford to Toyota… or Honda… or Mazda (for those models not touched/screwed up by Ford). Across the board these other auto makers built and sell vehicles leagues above Ford in reliability. Do you see a single vehicle that Ford builds that’s tops in reliability? Common, just one? Any? Just a single car? I thought not.

Thank you. Drive through!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tc/script.html

And why I haven’t yet bought a Toyota? That’s irrelevant, but I’ll answer. I’m only old enough to have bought a Nissan first, in ’91, because the Corolla I wanted back then was too expensive for what I could afford (I *really* wanted an Integra, but that too was beyond affordability). I then bought a Protégé, because Toyota’s current designs, AS I already said <sigh> are too boring. Protégé has stellar reliability AND awesome appearance, so I bought it (although I quite admittedly have issues with the Pro, also).

Notice, however, that I haven’t bought a Ford. And my maintenance costs have been accordingly, and intelligently, lower.

Community service. I applaud this from any organization and am glad you’re involved. I respect that and thank you. However, want to bet Toyota has similar policy for their North American operations? There's nothing about that that makes Ford special.

September 11: Ford, GM and (rip) Chrysler have, or had, direct roots in this country. If the attack had happened in Japan who do you think would have been most involved? The WTC was, by definition, a United States issue and it was accordingly handled with greater U.S. assistance from corporate entities. This is an irrelevant comparison.

Environment: GM or Ford DO NOT do as much as Toyota does for the environment. Ford and GM have no hybrid vehicle in mass production. That alone amounts for far greater positive environmental impact by Toyota than the others. And it’s quite safe to say that Toyota does at least as much for environmental stewardship as the others in their manufacturing facilities as GM and Ford do, domestically. And in any event, do you really think getting your information from an official corporate web site (like from Ford’s) is going to present a complete picture of a company’s environmental practices? Hell no! It’ll be all polished up and perfect, per the way they want you to think.

So here’s my theme song for this thread: “Momma said knock you out! I’m gonna knock you ouuut! …Don’t you ever compare.. me to the rest that’ll all get sliced and diced, competition’s payin the price.. I’m gonna knock you out! Momma said knock you ouuut!...” :p

Your rebuttal?

Enough about the frickin hybrids. GM and Ford both have fuel cell vehicles in development with production not too far off. And if you want you can buy your F-150 designed to run on alternative fuels. Toyota still has a crappy environmental record and is THE ONLY Japanese car company to follow GM and Ford with ever larger and more worthless SUV's. You want a car company to fawn over why not pick someone worthwhile like BMW, Mercedes, VW, or (dare I say it) pre-Ford Volvo with the awesome S80! :squint fi

Ooops.... I forget to mention that companies actually BUY those alternative fuel vehicles Ford sells (I'm not sure if GM makes any at the moment). Instead of a couple of environazis buying hybrids.

PRotegeMASter... good reply.. finally something which makes me think... you must have spent some time researching the info... anyhow... I'm tired tonight, but I'll have a rebuttal for you tomorrow!

Sorry to burst your bubble but a couple of interesting points. As an economist:

Ford does not care about you! Toyota does not care about you! They care about one evil dirty thing:

MAKING MONEY!

Now away from the blinding flashes of the obvious to the more interesting stuff:

1. Consumer Reports - CR is full of crap. They cannot provide statistically useful data with their polling methods. The currently only send out surveys to their subscribers. This causes two things. First they are only sampling a small sample of a small sample of the population (their subscriber base is only a small percent of the US population). Second since they only poll subscribers they are commiting another sin. This is like me asking members of the NRA whether they favor gun control. I'm pulling data meant to represent a whole population from a homogenous subset of the population. Or how about a third? Only a small portion of those polled will actually respond. So they narrow their subset down even more considerably. Basically all of this together indicates that CR is useless and is about as worthwhile as me pulling reliability data from my butt.

2. Ford Pinto - I recommend you read "The Myth of the Ford Pinto Case" by Gary Schwartz or any number of recently published articles about Nader and the Pinto debacle. Pretty much everyone who has looked recently has found the gasoline tank explosion problems to be exaggerated and comparable to those of other vehicles made during that period. This was actually a discussion topic in one of my econ classes this week. Do a little research, some reading maybe, and learn why people like Nader should be shot in the back of the head without warning.

3. GM vs. Ford - I could provide any number of anecdotal cases of Ford vehicles breaking down and having hideous faults. My family has owned both and they have ALL broken down. Just the Ford vehicles were more expensive to fix or had really bad problems under warranty. The point of this being that you can't prove that Ford is better than GM and I can't prove GM is better than Ford (nor do I want to, I just said they were as good as or better than Ford). Unless you can find a properly executed statistical survey over a period of a decade or so I would say that issue is dead. My empirical experience with Ford and GM have been okay, I have enjoyed the Fords more (until the new Silverado's came out) and was more willing to put up with their issues (I didn't have many with my Ranger but our other Ranger had some severe issues). You have better empirical experience with Ford. Big deal. I'm not in the market for another full-size truck.

Just an addition. I was looking for that article online and I found this website which has a brief summary of some stupid reliability things that have happened to automakers over the years:

http://overlawyered.com/topics/auto.html

They say that article isn't online. I can't find it yet either but I'm going to look for some more to post. But that one was my favorite.

If Ford does not care about you please explain why Ford Voluntarily recalled Firestone's products.... I am referring to the second recall...this recall was what caused Ford to take such a financial hit last year that stock price plummeted,but Ford chose to take the hit financially. Just for the well being of it's customers,no other reason...the Federal Government didnt require it,Ford just got some data that some of the tires would be faulty,so Ford replaced them ALL....whens the last time a manufacturer did that...I seriously doubt Toyota would take such a bold step,especially considering it would probably bankrupt them

Re: Re: J.D. Powers!? Not Again!
 

That smells like a tax deuction for FORD. Corporate citizenship wouldn't involve dislocating former UAW jobs to Mexico...

BE PROUD!
 

This is developing into quite an interesting debate, but before I
say anything further, I want to re-iterate my objective when I
first posted in this thread. My point is not to claim that Ford
Motor has better quality vehicles than Toyota, nor was it to
compare Ford to Toyota in any possible way. Toyota Motor Corp. is a very distinguished company and they produce the highest quality vehicles currently in the marketplace. All manufacturers strive to get the to this benchmark that Toyota has set.

I don't want to wast my time to say that Ford Motor is better than Toyota whether it be for product design, style, quality,
reliability, social responsibility, vehicle safety, environment,
etc, etc. The fact is both of these organizations are great
companies. There are some things that Toyota does better (quality and reliability of cars) and there are other things that Ford does better such as more developing more exciting products (Mustang, T-Bird, GT, SVT) and of course Ford conquers the truck world.

Basically, my point here is to give some credibility to Ford Motor
Company and to give awareness to those that are less knowledgable about the facts. The fact that some members of this forum simply bash Ford simply because it's "Ford" upsets me for the fact that they are talking through their ass. Stop the bashing people! If Toyota were in charge of Mazda, they would probably eliminate the brand altogether so that it would not compete with the likes of Camry and Corolla. If General Motors had control of Mazda, they would essentially try to bring over all the operations to the U.S. and make another Cavalier out of the Protegé. Given Ford's heritage and its zeal for exciting emotional products, Mazda is where it is today.

Now that I've got that off my chest, let me clear up some issues
here. If you guys think J.D. Power & Associates is full of shit,
then why bother even listening to the other commercial publications out there? Consumer Reports?... Car and Driver?.... Motor Trend? Edmunds.com? Take them all out of the equation cuz they are all tied to the manufacturers in one way or another.

Crown Victoria investigation - The National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) on Oct 03/2002 closed its investigation
regarding the Ford Crown Victoria and fuel leaks during rear-impact crashes. NHTSA found that the vehicle not only meets the current standard for fuel systems during a 30 mph test, but also that the Crown Victoria did not leak during a 50 mph test.

As for the Firestone/Explorer safety recall isssue. It was Ford's
own iniative to recall several million of those tires, resulting in
a serious financial loss. I believe it was almost $3 billion! Ford does care for its consumers.

Also, I am amazed with ProtegeMaster. You seem to be a very
sensible, well informed guy. You know that Ford Motor controls
Mazda, yet you bash Ford, and go ahead and drop thousands of
dollars on a Mazda product.... I don't understand the logic behind
that decision. Also, you have yet to own a Ford vehicle so your
basis of attack is strictly based on heresay. Own one, then talk
about how much they suck.

September 11 was a tragic worldwide catastrophe. Although Toyota Motor is a foreign company, the USA is where Toyota flourishes. This is where they make all most of their cash and therefore they should have contributed much more significantly to the cause.

Environment: I don't believe you have all the facts. Sure Toyota
has the hybrid Prius on the market, but it's such a low volume car
that it hardly makes a difference in the marketplace. That's no
surprise since the Prius isn't the most desirable vehicle out there. Meanwhile, Ford Motor is on the brink of launching the
hybrid version of its popular Escape SUV. I'm sure this model will
have much more of a positive environmental impact since it will
sell in larger volumes. Also, take hybrid technology to the next
level and Ford Motor is furiously developed zero emmission, fuel
cell electric vehicles in collaboration with DaimlerChysler and
Ballard Fuel Systems.

While I'm talking about the environment consider the fact that the average FOrd vehicle is more recycleable than the industry average. Focus has been designed to be 85% recyclable. Also, Ford Motor Company and Alcan Inc. have launched the North American automotive industry's first "closed-loop" recycling program for aluminum sheet scrap.

Want more??.. how about this...?? On December 8, 1998, Ford became the first automotive company to voluntarily certify all of its manufacturing plants around the world to ISO 14001, the only internationally recognized environmental management system standard certified by independent auditors. That's 140 plants in 26 countries – and Ford did it in three years!

How does that sound for environment and social responsibility?

Like I said before, I am not here to draw and comparisons to other auto manufacturers - each has their own strengths and weaknesses. My objective is simply to enlighten you with some facts and be proud for the fact that we as Protege owners have a great controlling company a the helm.

Ok to al the anti Ford people shut up. This is bullshit. So what Ford owns Mazda, who the hell cares. One more thing if Ford did not take Mazda over there would be NO Mazda. Same for Jaguar. As for Jag their quality was so bad that Ford spent 2 billion just to improve it. Now Ford has Land Rover and Volvo both of witch need to improve quality. Yes the next Protegé will share more Ford parts than it ever has big deal. You’re driving a Jap Ford anyway. Now I’m on my 5th Mazda in a row. And my next car will likely be a Mazda but I will look at the Ford and the Mercury cars before I get anything.

Hi!
Item #1 seems to be a complete contradiction to your stance in earlier posts. Yes, Toyota is a MUCH better product (NOT necessarily company) than Ford.
As a consumer, I am interested in the value and integrity of the items I buy...

2) Wasn't the MR2, GTS, etc exciting. Hybrids are exciting too, though maybe to different mindset than yours. You cannot extend your values, carte blanc, to everyone. Personalities and opinions ought not be one-size-fits-all!

3) Yes, your only "fact" generated it that you are offended by someone's negative opinion of Ford products. Your speculations of "what if" GM etc owned Mazda has no basis whatsoever, and seems to be driven by emotions rather than reason.

4) Ford was reducing legal liability from the impending civil lawsuits from the numerous Firestone/Ford-related blowouts/rollovers. IMO, they are both liable...

5) You've been very condescending to the "less-informed" (i.e. non-Ford) members throughout your posts. Fact: I don't respect this style of debate - it usually signifies some critical weakness in the opponent's logic. BTW, I've owned and driven many Ford vehicles: (from a '65 2 + 2, Maverick, Pinto, '70 Mach 1, F-100, F-150, Bronco, LTD's, etc.) Except for those Early Mustangs and trucks, the rest of the cars do suck! LTD was ok, BUT where's the "excitement" in that? The Truck frames are solid, but honestly, I'd rather have a Tundra than an F-150 or Landcruiser over Expedition (or Landrover)
I Knew Ford owned the controlling interest in Mazda. My purchase of the Protege was delayed by the fact that I had to prove to myself that in NO WAY was this car designed or manufactured by Ford. Sad, but true..

6) 9/11 has nothing to do with anything other than being some emotional, flag-waving attempt of yours at garnering Ford support ("Proud to be American"). Toyota has obligations to its consumers, workers and to stockholders, only. I think it crass that such "generosity" of a corporation is exploited to demonstrate how much Ford cares. Give me a break, this actually seems to be more of a ploy for publicity...

All I can say is that I am not intending to single you out for attack - BUT, that seems to be what you instigated with ProtegeMaster. He doesn't like Ford and has his reasons; he shouldn't be forced into long explanations as to why. I simply don't care whether anyone likes Ford or not - I am not driving their cars. Unfortunately, I don't like any Domestically produced auto...
Next Car: Mini Cooper S! - Does this make me un-American?