Long Awaited CHDesign Turbo
January-28th-2002, 01:01 AM
#16
Protege Newbie
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 41
It is known that b series engines like the miata can handle up to 16psi before the rods start buckling.
I am as well in my final stage of turbo charging, the full kit is already fabricated and installed on the car, all thats left is to install the engine managment and tune it. I was planning to run 8-10psi but I have heard that perhaps 10psi is to much for our F series. Does anyone out there no what the limitations are with a stand alone engine managment system? And if so what is the primary part contributing to the failure??(ie pistons rods)
If a honda without any welded in block guard and wimpy con-rods can handle 9psi, I am pretty confident that the f series can handle it, but I dont want to find out the hard way.
I am as well in my final stage of turbo charging, the full kit is already fabricated and installed on the car, all thats left is to install the engine managment and tune it. I was planning to run 8-10psi but I have heard that perhaps 10psi is to much for our F series. Does anyone out there no what the limitations are with a stand alone engine managment system? And if so what is the primary part contributing to the failure??(ie pistons rods)
If a honda without any welded in block guard and wimpy con-rods can handle 9psi, I am pretty confident that the f series can handle it, but I dont want to find out the hard way.
January-28th-2002, 06:47 AM
#17
Jedi Master Yoda
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 528
THe rods and pistons are the weak point of the F series. THe crank is not forged but it is very strong good up to about 400 HP. If you have very good engine managment you might pull off 9-10 PSI but that is with a stand-alone more than likely. I will have my kit installed next weekend not this saturday but the next so I will tell you how 5-6 PSI feels and I might be able to get it to Charlotte for a dyno run.
January-28th-2002, 08:15 AM
#18
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 54
"gernaded engines when they hit the 9-10 PSI mark"
With what kind of setup? Just a turbo slapped on a stock motor?
I would think with intercooling, good engine management and multiple controls in place to stop detonation that most engines can handle 8-10 psi.
With what kind of setup? Just a turbo slapped on a stock motor?
I would think with intercooling, good engine management and multiple controls in place to stop detonation that most engines can handle 8-10 psi.
January-28th-2002, 08:22 AM
#19
Jedi Master Yoda
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 528
Even if you do stop detonation there is still excess stress put on the engine that it was not designed for originally. I am going to set my kit at 5-6 PSI but it will include a manual boost controller so you can turn it up to whatever you feel comfortable with but I'm not going to take any liability for a gernaded engine. And the ones that gernaded at 9-10 PSI were intercooled. They were using an FMU like my kit for fuel managment which we all know FMU are very reliable till the 7 PSI mark with no other fuel upgrades. They are good up to 12 PSI with an adjustable FPR and an upgraded fuel pump. Bigger injectors wouldn't hurt either.
January-28th-2002, 10:47 AM
#20
Jedi Master Yoda
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 528
With an upgrade fuel system then you could probably run more boost but like I said I am using an FMU in my kit to keep cost down. I may offer a additional injector upgrade which would be more tunable and offer more fuel when needed. I am thinking about going with additional injectors myself later in the road for now though the FMU will work for me. If I go additional injectors it will be RC Engineering injectors with the Greedy or HKS additional injector control.
January-28th-2002, 12:45 PM
#21
Protege Newbie
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 41
I don't know what some of you guys get your info from but a stock block miata at 30psi?????? HHAAAA Thats so comical. I kinda begin to wonder what you guys are smoking!
Even mister minimonster the god of miata's does not run that, and oh a little secret......he's runnin escort pistons and rods, so much for that stock motor.
The only way to run over 16psi on a stock miata motor with out buckling rods is with a tec 2 or maybe a haltech to get super ultra precise control of ignition and fuel and you may go to 18psi but that is the limit. The links that come with the flying miata kits max out at about 16-17psi before something starts going wrong.
Even mister minimonster the god of miata's does not run that, and oh a little secret......he's runnin escort pistons and rods, so much for that stock motor.
The only way to run over 16psi on a stock miata motor with out buckling rods is with a tec 2 or maybe a haltech to get super ultra precise control of ignition and fuel and you may go to 18psi but that is the limit. The links that come with the flying miata kits max out at about 16-17psi before something starts going wrong.
January-28th-2002, 01:18 PM
#22
Jedi Master Yoda
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 528
Actually there was a Miata in one of the recent Super Street magazines that was putting 400 HP to the wheel and running close to 30 PSI on stock internals and had the dyno graphs to back it up. So there are Miatas out there running that type of boost maybe not many though.
January-28th-2002, 11:59 PM
#23
Protege Newbie
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 41
OHHH I am enlitened, I just had an epiphany!
Now you come out and say that they are GTX motors and GTX motors have beefier rods and lower compression. This was done extensively with 90-93 1.6l miata's, we would put GTX rods in the car because the stock rods on the 1.6 would start failing under extreme boost pressures. Now mazda has gotten cheap and when you order GTX rods they give you the miata ones so there is no advantage between the 2 because they are the exact same part. As for the car seen in the magazines thats, Ric who campaigns his minimonster and runs 30psi at 400hp on escort pistons and rods, like I stated before. Reason why is because of the lower compression. I think he shot peened his rods to withstand higher boost. All the magazines say that he runs his motor on full stock internals and he does but not miata stock internals.
People fail to understand that yes maybe a car like Rics or the people you talk about can make a couple passes at 30 psi but thats it. I have no interest in running a car for a very short period of time at 30psi.
In sport compact car minimonters car ran a 10sec 1/4 mile at 30psi. How many times did minimonster run his car at 30 psi? 2 times! Once at the dyno to get his 4oohp figure and Once at the track to get his 10 sec pass. Ever wonder why you havn't heard of his car latley.....thats right on 2 runs at 30psi he buckled All his rods and fried some piston rings. There is more to it than meets the eye. Hell I have a friend with a escort on stock internals a t3/4 turbo and haltech that ran 25 psi. So yes its possible but how long do you think his engine lasted?
PseudoRealityX.......to awnser your question
"Ok, so where is all your proof of rods buckling at 16lbs?"
a stock miata pre 99 the ones with lower compression will buckle past 16lbs maybe not today......maybe not tommorow but it will eventually! As for the higher compression M2's those cant hold up to well because of the weaker rods and compression. I have owned 4 miatas. 1 being supercharged and 2 being turbocharged. I have attended numerous miata events and I am an avid member of the miata power pages. And I have seen 1 miata run 20psi reliably, and that car is a freak of nature.
I know you will try to savvy up some educated response to my post to belittle me. I do not appreciate when members especially moderators want to act like they know everything. So go ahead and humor me with your response. Actually I will no longer visit this site. I rather post in a site....where I ask a question or advise and I get a good awnser instead of being ridiculed by the moderator.
Now you come out and say that they are GTX motors and GTX motors have beefier rods and lower compression. This was done extensively with 90-93 1.6l miata's, we would put GTX rods in the car because the stock rods on the 1.6 would start failing under extreme boost pressures. Now mazda has gotten cheap and when you order GTX rods they give you the miata ones so there is no advantage between the 2 because they are the exact same part. As for the car seen in the magazines thats, Ric who campaigns his minimonster and runs 30psi at 400hp on escort pistons and rods, like I stated before. Reason why is because of the lower compression. I think he shot peened his rods to withstand higher boost. All the magazines say that he runs his motor on full stock internals and he does but not miata stock internals.
People fail to understand that yes maybe a car like Rics or the people you talk about can make a couple passes at 30 psi but thats it. I have no interest in running a car for a very short period of time at 30psi.
In sport compact car minimonters car ran a 10sec 1/4 mile at 30psi. How many times did minimonster run his car at 30 psi? 2 times! Once at the dyno to get his 4oohp figure and Once at the track to get his 10 sec pass. Ever wonder why you havn't heard of his car latley.....thats right on 2 runs at 30psi he buckled All his rods and fried some piston rings. There is more to it than meets the eye. Hell I have a friend with a escort on stock internals a t3/4 turbo and haltech that ran 25 psi. So yes its possible but how long do you think his engine lasted?
PseudoRealityX.......to awnser your question
"Ok, so where is all your proof of rods buckling at 16lbs?"
a stock miata pre 99 the ones with lower compression will buckle past 16lbs maybe not today......maybe not tommorow but it will eventually! As for the higher compression M2's those cant hold up to well because of the weaker rods and compression. I have owned 4 miatas. 1 being supercharged and 2 being turbocharged. I have attended numerous miata events and I am an avid member of the miata power pages. And I have seen 1 miata run 20psi reliably, and that car is a freak of nature.
I know you will try to savvy up some educated response to my post to belittle me. I do not appreciate when members especially moderators want to act like they know everything. So go ahead and humor me with your response. Actually I will no longer visit this site. I rather post in a site....where I ask a question or advise and I get a good awnser instead of being ridiculed by the moderator.
January-31st-2002, 11:26 AM
#25
Protege God
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 1,525
You are correct. That was me, I guess we have some conflicting information. That's why I'd like to know exactly where Craig is getting his information. The F series block is sand cast, and has exactly the same bore spacing and deck height as the B series. It should therefore be very close in strength to the B series block. Mazda Motorsports did tell me the stock crankshaft is forged, it too should be very strong. The stock connecting rods, and pistons are not forged however, and there strength is unknown as far as I know. Also the head gasket is another unknown at this point. If anyone has other information, please be specific, and state where the information comes from.
Originally posted by TheMAN
I heard someone said they called Mazda Motorsports and was told the FP/FS cranks are forged.
I heard someone said they called Mazda Motorsports and was told the FP/FS cranks are forged.
January-31st-2002, 11:59 AM
#26
Protege God
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 1,525
Boys, boys, play nice. 
It sounds like you both have valid points. No need to argue about it. SpoolinMP3, please don't leave the forum over something this silly. Remember, it takes two to argue. Jesse comes on a bit strong at times, but if you are both comfortable with your information, so what? Let it go. It sounds as though one of you is talking about what is possible, and the other about what is reliable. Neither is going to be the same in every case, even with the same engine.
Just for my own information, I thought what SpoolinMP3 said about the stock Mazda connecting rods for the BP engine was true. The B6T and BPT motors came with stronger connecting rods and lower compression pistons. Those rods are no longer available from Mazda, and all current normally aspirated BP engines used the same thinner connecting rod. Is this not true? How many different connecting rods did Mazda produce for the BP engine?
IMHO, saying a car is running on a stock bottom end means the bottom end has not be pulled apart. Technically, you could pull the engine apart and magnaflux, debur, shot peen, polish, and balance everything, and you would still be using stock parts. Obviously, the second approach would yield a much stronger engine, at a much greater expense. Be mindful of what some people call a stock bottom end...
It sounds like you both have valid points. No need to argue about it. SpoolinMP3, please don't leave the forum over something this silly. Remember, it takes two to argue. Jesse comes on a bit strong at times, but if you are both comfortable with your information, so what? Let it go. It sounds as though one of you is talking about what is possible, and the other about what is reliable. Neither is going to be the same in every case, even with the same engine. Just for my own information, I thought what SpoolinMP3 said about the stock Mazda connecting rods for the BP engine was true. The B6T and BPT motors came with stronger connecting rods and lower compression pistons. Those rods are no longer available from Mazda, and all current normally aspirated BP engines used the same thinner connecting rod. Is this not true? How many different connecting rods did Mazda produce for the BP engine?
IMHO, saying a car is running on a stock bottom end means the bottom end has not be pulled apart. Technically, you could pull the engine apart and magnaflux, debur, shot peen, polish, and balance everything, and you would still be using stock parts. Obviously, the second approach would yield a much stronger engine, at a much greater expense. Be mindful of what some people call a stock bottom end...
Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
Dave Lauzier's MX-3, as in that article that you apparently didnt read was a BPD, not a GTX engine, and did hold 30+ lbs of boost when on the strip. It was also his daily driver car, so it was reliable enough. And yes, i do realize that he didnt run 30 lbs on a regular basis. What im saying is that Mazda BPs are NOTHING like Honda engines where you even with the best of tuning, you WILL break something in the bottom end once you try to pass the 14-16lbs of boost, even once or twice.
I think youre missing my point. We dont own miatas, nor do any of us have 10:1 compression and the smaller, weaker rods that the later miatas have. We do have the ESCORT rods and pistons and everything else. And the BP with those parts can handle the boost, due to the lower compression and beefier internals.
And if the cylinder pressures are strong enough to buckle the rods, then they will buckle now, not in a year. If they buckle in a year, then you had a tuning issue that you should have figured out if you wanted to run higher boost numbers.
I dont think i know everything, but i do think that ive done my fair share of research myself about the B series motors over the last few years, and I think i have a decent idea of what can be done with them.
Dave Lauzier's MX-3, as in that article that you apparently didnt read was a BPD, not a GTX engine, and did hold 30+ lbs of boost when on the strip. It was also his daily driver car, so it was reliable enough. And yes, i do realize that he didnt run 30 lbs on a regular basis. What im saying is that Mazda BPs are NOTHING like Honda engines where you even with the best of tuning, you WILL break something in the bottom end once you try to pass the 14-16lbs of boost, even once or twice.
I think youre missing my point. We dont own miatas, nor do any of us have 10:1 compression and the smaller, weaker rods that the later miatas have. We do have the ESCORT rods and pistons and everything else. And the BP with those parts can handle the boost, due to the lower compression and beefier internals.
And if the cylinder pressures are strong enough to buckle the rods, then they will buckle now, not in a year. If they buckle in a year, then you had a tuning issue that you should have figured out if you wanted to run higher boost numbers.
I dont think i know everything, but i do think that ive done my fair share of research myself about the B series motors over the last few years, and I think i have a decent idea of what can be done with them.
April-5th-2002, 09:47 AM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 48
Oooooo, I love debates. . .
My take is, it does not make any sense to "rate" a motor, rod, piston or any engine component based on boost pressure you are running. Why? Think about what actually fails components in the first place. Heat and high stress levels are the two big ones. How can you control heat and stress? Tuning. Ignition timing alone, can and has a profound effect on the heat and stress engine components see. My personal feeling, though never proved, is that with proper engine managment (ie. generally a boost dependant engine managment system) and very conservative tuning you could probably easily run 15psi of boost on the FS. A guy helping me tune my Haltech, has a 240SX (with 2.4 KA motor) running about 21 lbs on a stock bottom end motor. The key point to understand is that tuning is going to ultimately determine limitations.
Most people run an FMU setup. With this you have very very little control. Alot of people stress fuel, fuel, fuel and fuel is important, but I advocate ignition timing as the big factor in the heat and stress your motor sees. To help visualize this, what if we ignited a mixture at 20deg before TDC. Mixture gets ignited, cylinder pressure and heat sky-rocket, but the piston is still moving up, compressing the combusting mixture more and more, increasing pressures and temps more and more. Great for power, but that heat and stress will fail weak components. Now what if we ignited the mixture at 5deg after TCD. Now the mixture is combusting as the piston is stroking down, so this keeps cylinder temps and pressure down. You sacrifice power, but you will also save your bottom end. (Note these are just hypothetical numbers)
Enjoy,
My take is, it does not make any sense to "rate" a motor, rod, piston or any engine component based on boost pressure you are running. Why? Think about what actually fails components in the first place. Heat and high stress levels are the two big ones. How can you control heat and stress? Tuning. Ignition timing alone, can and has a profound effect on the heat and stress engine components see. My personal feeling, though never proved, is that with proper engine managment (ie. generally a boost dependant engine managment system) and very conservative tuning you could probably easily run 15psi of boost on the FS. A guy helping me tune my Haltech, has a 240SX (with 2.4 KA motor) running about 21 lbs on a stock bottom end motor. The key point to understand is that tuning is going to ultimately determine limitations.
Most people run an FMU setup. With this you have very very little control. Alot of people stress fuel, fuel, fuel and fuel is important, but I advocate ignition timing as the big factor in the heat and stress your motor sees. To help visualize this, what if we ignited a mixture at 20deg before TDC. Mixture gets ignited, cylinder pressure and heat sky-rocket, but the piston is still moving up, compressing the combusting mixture more and more, increasing pressures and temps more and more. Great for power, but that heat and stress will fail weak components. Now what if we ignited the mixture at 5deg after TCD. Now the mixture is combusting as the piston is stroking down, so this keeps cylinder temps and pressure down. You sacrifice power, but you will also save your bottom end. (Note these are just hypothetical numbers)
Enjoy,
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ShogunProtege
3rd Gen Protege/MazdaSpeed/P5/MP3
5
July-31st-2005 05:58 PM
Ambient
Photo and Video Gallery
14
January-17th-2003 04:41 PM
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)