Moxx

I everyone...I have been reding the forum for a few weeks, and I just got my new Laser Blue P5 ! Love the car so far...

Question for all

Did anybody try to put a panel to put some switches somewhere on the dash ? I am thinling for putting a few switches (1 to deactive the ABS brakes...(on occasion in the winter) but I don't want to put holes in the dashboard...I would like ideas or even better some pics... (I was thinking of using the ashtray panel or the space underneath...)

Thanks in advance !!

onehawaiian

congrats on your new 5! welcome to our little club.

hihoslva

Why would you want to deactivate the ABS in WINTER - when it's most useful?

I'm not sure you can even do such a thing on the Protege.

But yes - the panel near the foglight switch (if you have it) and the little change holder is a good place to start.

I also put a switch in the trim near the shifter - it's an on/off for my sub amp.

~HH

HS8

congrats

Sir Nuke will be here shortly, welcoming you to our little webspace

Sir Nuke

Moxx, Welcome to our happy little corner of the net, and to our Club. There are TWO BIG fridge'S in the corner with anything you can think of in them...help yourself...of course only take what you can LEGALLY have.

make yourself at home on one of the big fluffy couches, kick your shoes off, put your feet up on one of the tables, yes we are allowed to do that, mom don't care....and take it easy.

oh...btw....every once in a while a food fight breaks out...so you may not want to wear nice clothes here.

Welcome!!

For your switches....how about make a little panel to mount them to that you could put UNDER the dash just in front of the driver somewhere....such that the switches are out of sight...that way your dash stays nice and clean and stock looking....and not hacked up with add-ons that don't necessariarly go with the rest of the car.

IF you do put them out in plain sight...do NOT use normal toggle switches...they look cheap and not very professional ..... if you must put them in plain sight....use a flush mount switch. it will look much better.

Protege_Cat

WELCOME to the group and congrats on your new P5

Laser Blue - very cool

As for the switches the guys are right you can put them in the empty beside the fog lamp switch

again congrats

Moxx

In my experience and from articles I read...ABS on really slippery roads (Ice especially) can be tricky....The friction factor the ice gives is some little that the computer just won't break the car because it won't find any grip...

One experience I had with this...and I ended up in a Snow bank...I also read that in thick snow, locking the breaks a little can improve breaking by compacting snow in front of the tires but that one I am a little less convinced...but for ICE...I don't want ABS (I don't want Ice also but i'd rather take my chace by breaking myself and being able to judge if it breaks or not than having no breaks because on a computer !)

But on rain ...it's really good...

hihoslva

Moxx - I think you are a bit misinformed of the purpose of ABS.

It DOES NOT make you stop faster. In fact, it can often increase stopping distances. It is meant to keep the wheels from locking, and allow you to STEER away from danger.

ABS is probably at its MOST effective in the snow. Your statement about some "snow getting packed up in front of locked wheels" sounds like "snake oil" to me. The only way to maintain control is to keep the wheels ROLLING. ABS gives most drivers the skill they do not have - the ability to perform a sort-of "threshold braking", where you push the limits of traction to the brink.

On pure ice however, not much is going to save you, so ABS or no-ABS - it's all about the same. You're just gonna slide wherever the car wants to go.

Fact is, you can't break the laws of physics - just because you do or don't have ABS does not determine your fate. If you wound up in a snow bank, it's not the fault of the ABS - it's your own. ABS is only there to help - it can't perform magic. If you drive too fast for the conditions, you're gonna end up in trouble, period.

But thinking that NOT having ABS is BETTER for safety? I think you have your "snake oil" bottle and your "Smirnoffs" bottle confused.... Maybe 1% of the time, not having ABS would be better. But if you like those odds, go for it.

~HH

Moxx

I know that ABS increases a little bit the braking distance...while keeping the control of your car...

But in circumstances in which the road is really slippery (Ice)...de-activating ABS gives you one thing...direct control over the brakes and makes the braking more predictable...ok it's going to slip all over the place...but better that than having the ABS computer not braking at all (because grip is so low that it releases the brakes all the time...) And I'd rather be pissed ay myself for braking too late and bumping someone than bumping them because the ABS did not want to brake...

But hey...I'm not saying everybody should do it...but i would like to do it...

punk

Moxx, have you been hanging around the 'tex? There was a debate on there a few days ago about the "snow dam" theory that went on for pages...

I for one HATE ABS, traction control, or anything else that restricts MY control of the car. Maybe when I'm 50 I'll need it, and I sure as hell wouldn't want my g/f to dirve my car without it. But I want control of the car with no mechanical or computer interference (or as little as possible anyway).

*edit: spelling*

hihoslva

So - you think you can control your car better than the computer assisted systems?

I understand your thinking - but it's faulty logic. Dude - I don't know how old you are, but you are no racecar or rally driver, and there is very VERY little chance that you can control a car better than ABS or traction control can.

Listen - I'm not a huge fan of ABS either. I'm not comfortable with the way in which it functions - my Miata had it, and I didn't like the loss of personal control when the ABS took over. But it saved my *** one time, allowing me to steer thru what would have been a horrible accident in the snow. I know how to drive, and how to maintain control in slippery conditions, but ABS does the "pumping" and threshold braking for you, so you can concentrate on avoidance.

My Pro does not have ABS, and that's okay with me. But I'm not foolish enough to think that I am better off without it - unlike some people it seems.

If it saves your *** ONE time, you'll be a believer. And the part about your g/f - that's MORE bad logic. ABS is BETTER in the hands of a skilled driver (which it seems you think you are), because an unskilled driver will just slam the brakes and forget about steering. If you have enough presence of mind to steer away from an accident, ABS is MORE valuable to you than your "unskilled" g/f.

Lastly - get off the high horse. You're not alone in this - but you need to stop thinking you have excellent driving skills. Chances are, you are an average driver like the rest of us. I put tons of miles on my cars every year - and if you are a "youngin", I've probably driven 10 to 20 times the miles in my life as you have in yours (and on much more congested and dangerous roads), and I do not think of myself as an excellent driver. Experienced, maybe - but I don't kid myself by thinking I have "mad skillz". You should stop kidding yourself, too. This is not a flame or an insult - it's a reality check. My sig is true - 80% of drivers THINK they are above average in skill, and it's just not possible that they actually ARE.

~HH

mnkyboy

Congrats!

Do you have any pics?

Ive asked this before, but no response...does anyone know where I can get a compelete list of changes/addons to the 2003 P5?

silver_p5_owner

I really didn't want to join in this fray but I couldn't help myself. HH you seem to be the only poster in this thread so far who is on a "high horse". The high horse of technological wizardry. I don't see anyone here claiming to be a race car driver or even stating they have excellent skills. All that's been said is they like to have personal (which I read as uniterrupted by a technological override) control over the car's basic systems. I too have a preference for non abs cars. And I aint no "youngin". I've been driving since 1977 in everything that Michgan weather can throw at ya. Hell, back then just about every car was on bias ply tires with rear drive and no computer controlled anything. My biggest beef with abs is how every manufacturer describes how to use it. Basically clamp down on the brakes, don't let off and steer. That sets you up be in a situation where the computer can only toggle full brake on/full brake off. The modulation becomes a function of on/off cycles. Some times a light touch on the pedal will work better (IMHO) than abs. Sometimes abs will work better than a human modulated touch. Abs on dry pavement is excellent in a panic situation, on ice it's all about keeping your wits and hope you can stay in control. You really ought to calm down a little and relax, perhaps a new coat of paint for your soapbox would help. BTW in my 25 years of driving I have not noticed that 20% of the drivers around me are getting into crashes or near misses. I am amazed that there aren't more problems on the road so perhaps 80% of all drivers are, indeed, above average.

Moxx, congrats on the new car. It looks really good in Laser Blue. Welcome to the forum, there's lots of good stuff to be found here. Some times you just have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

hihoslva

Well - okay. But I did state that I'm not huge fan of ABS, and I can understand why some people would have a bias against it.

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I don't see anyone here claiming to be a race car driver or even stating they have excellent skills. All that's been said is they like to have personal (which I read as uniterrupted by a technological override) control over the car's basic systems.

But the desire to disable ABS absolutley implies that somehow an average driver can control the car better without them - and for the most part that just ain't so. I have a long-time family friend who WAS a racecar driver - and quite a successful one. And he's ROYALLY pissed that his Jeep Cherokee does NOT have ABS brakes - and he's got the skills to do without them. They can save your ***, regardless of skill level, and the situations where ABS would be counterproductive are few and far between. This reminds me of the people who won't wear seatbelts because they'll "trap you in the car". C'mon.

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I too have a preference for non abs cars. And I aint no "youngin". I've been driving since 1977 in everything that Michgan weather can throw at ya. Hell, back then just about every car was on bias ply tires with rear drive and no computer controlled anything.

Hey - I've owned older cars myself - two being from 1979 - so I know what you're saying, to an extent. But let's face the facts - the "youngins" may have never experienced this (and I can include myself here too, I suppose, because I don't think I ever had bias-ply's ). While giving up "control" of the car may seem uncomfortable - it works. The argument about "control" could be extended to other things, too - I mean, wanna feel "connected" to the brakes? Ditch the power booster. Then you'll REALLY get the "feel" for them. Lose the power steering, too, because it dampens road feel. Of course, these are ridiculous examples - but ABS is not NEW technology - it is a proven safety feature, and a life saver.

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My biggest beef with abs is how every manufacturer describes how to use it. Basically clamp down on the brakes, don't let off and steer. That sets you up be in a situation where the computer can only toggle full brake on/full brake off. The modulation becomes a function of on/off cycles.

This is not true - that's not how ABS works. It's not as though the brakes are on/off at all. The only "off" is just enough to get the wheels spinning and gripping again - it's not as though the brakes are fully engagd and then fully released with each pulse.

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Some times a light touch on the pedal will work better (IMHO) than abs. Sometimes abs will work better than a human modulated touch.

A light touch on the pedal will not engage the ABS. ABS only comes into play when a wheel locks - if you can modulate the brakes well enough on your own, the ABS system will not intervene.

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Abs on dry pavement is excellent in a panic situation, on ice it's all about keeping your wits and hope you can stay in control.

Hey - we all have to realize that on ICE, all bets are pretty much off. I mean, how can we ever expect to drive safely on a surface when you can barely walk on it without falling down, right?

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You really ought to calm down a little and relax, perhaps a new coat of paint for your soapbox would help.

Oh yeah - like telling me to re-paint my soapbox is gonna help to calm me down! . I really didn't view my posts as grandstanding, but I can see where you are coming from. They are a bit "direct", I guess. But the fact is that ABS brakes are useful because they make up for the shortcomings in the skill of the driver. Not everyone (not even close) can perform threshold braking well - pushing the very limits of traction without locking the wheels - however, this IS the point at which the car is behaving the "best", and can be slowed at the maximum rate while still maintaining control. ABS senses this limit, and makes sure the brakes stay there. I'm really not trying to be on a soapbox - even if it seems this way (for which I do apologize). I'm merely trying to say to anyone who thinks that they can do a better job without ABS than with it - you should reconsider, and not overestimate your driving skill - because that's what it takes to perform the functions manually that an ABS system does electronically - skill (that very few of us actually have).

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BTW in my 25 years of driving I have not noticed that 20% of the drivers around me are getting into crashes or near misses. I am amazed that there aren't more problems on the road so perhaps 80% of all drivers are, indeed, above average.

Okay - not to nitpick - but this is PURE mathematics, nothing else. When considering an average, for 80% of a group to be above the average, the remaining 20% need to be WAY WAY below the average. In general, average and median are similar - 50% above, 50% below. Kinda the definition of an average, no? My signature is a statistic. If you went out and polled 5000 drivers, asking them to rate their own driving ability, 80% of them would say "above average". Now we ALL know this can't possibly be true, and that many of those who respond this way will actually be quite poor drivers, if there was a way to quantatatively test such a thing. We all know plenty of people who THINK they rule the road, when in fact, we hate being a passenger in their car. The statement is meant to make people think a little bit - that even though they believe they have excellent driving skills, so does to the moron who just cut you off. It's about realizing that most of us ARE in fact, average. And we should consider that before criticizing other people's driving habits, or emphasizing our own "skills".

Sorry to those who feel I was preaching - but it is important to know your own limits. After all, driving is taking your own life, and many other peoples' lives, in your hands. It's not really something to be taken lightly, so before claiming that somehow you can perform better (read: SAFER!) without ABS, maybe you should have some real fact to back it up - other than I "don't like" ABS or I "think" I can do a better job. I DON'T LIKE ABS EITHER!! But if I had it, I certainly wouldn't look to disable it. Only because I recognize the benefit it provides - to everyone. To me, driving can be tons of fun, but it's also about staying safe. Hey - not many people liked the looks of the bulky steering wheel airbags when they first appeared, but I think we'd all agree only a fool would remove it for daily driving, because it can save your life.

Moxx - sorry to maybe have gotten off on the wrong foot here. Absolutely - congrats on the new car. I think I sometimes get a bit heated about certain topics - but I also like to see people make informed decisions, whether they are good or bad. My intention was only to confront your reasons for disabling the ABS - I guess to make sure you weren't going to do something relatively serious like this based on rumor and half-truth. Like cutting out the seatblets to avoid being "trapped" - it's bad reasoning. If your reasons are good for you - go for it. I'm sure other people here would love to know how to disable the ABS, too.

Best of luck with the car, and the Laser Blue certainly is stunning. Above all, be safe.

~HH

Moxx

Hey no problem..I see your point, it's a good one...

And if I was really against the benefits of ABS...I woudl pull the fuse out and that's it... That is why I want a switch...

I spoke to my mechanic and he said it might be possible but he would have to research it a little...Might be too complicated for what it's worth anyways...