ProtegeMaster

Ah, contacting Consumers Union is an excellent idea, samueh01. I'm a long time subscriber, and they're an excellent organization. I used their resources extensively in making my decision to buy a Protege. If Mazda refuses to address this issue I'll do the same thing and write to CU. Mazda DOES NOT want the Protege to be poorly rated in reliability. They'd better not "pull a Ford" and try to deny that their design has significant built in flaws that need to be fixed. Given that they're not doing especially well as as a company these days, even if fixing this engine problem cost them a little money now, it would cost far more to alienate their customers and establish a bad reputation by refusing to own up to their ECU (or whatever it is) screw up. They need to bring on their new models and prove that they're a company that treats their customers right. I didn't buy a Mazda to get screwed, nor did anyone else. I spent a very, very long time researching my choice; checking reliability history, comfort, style, efficiency, practicality, performance, etc..-- I left no stone unturned. I'd have to say that reliability is my absolute first requirement in a car. I don't care how cool it is, if it's not going to hold up well, screw it!

Anyway, this is a real issue. For those who haven't noticed it, I'm surprised. It's not to the point where you think the engine is going to blow up or anything, but it is pretty pronounced and noticeable if you listen closely. Compare how it sounds when your first start her up in the morning compared to after the engine is fully warmed up. It's a MAJOR difference. When it's cold it sounds like the timing is badly off, and I get concerned about what it's doing to the intake/exhaust valves.

Hope not to rant too much, guys! It's just that, as said, I put so much effort into researching this car and expecting that it would be flawless. Not to mention that, at least for me, it was a big ticket purchase. I'd like to hope that this is nothing more than an annoyance, and that the rattling has no negative consequences to the life of the engine. But that's hard to believe...

It's cool to get everyone's input on this thing-- I'll let you know when/if I hear from Mazda regarding my letter to them.

lucky one

I too have a new P5 with this rattle in the engine while it is cold. Here in Wisconsin it is cold for quite a while. Will be taking mine to the dealer and make them document it and get a copy for my files too. My noise is not terrible but is easily heard. Happens anywhere between 2200 and 3000 rpm when engine is not up to full temp. Other than that love the car and will work with them if they work with me. If not - BEWARE the pen is mightier than the sword. Lots of publications to write to and there is the old lemon law too.

Sir Nuke

Evidently NEVER....mine is as quiet as a mouse....well not exactly...but it damn sure don't rattle! ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM!!!!

Brubeck

I haven't heard a peep out of mine yet... though it's only got 350 miles so far. But it was damn cold this morning...

freak005

You know, I've been following this thread for however long it's been going on... (too long)... and all the while have been wondering why you people who are bitching don't realize that YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DRIVE YOUR ENGINE COLD. Regardless if it is an ECU setting or whatever the hell is causing the "rattle", it is unhealthy for ANY engine, regardless of 'rattle/setting/resonance/whatever-bs-thing-you-want-to-come-up-with-as-an-excuse'.... to be run hard while cold.

So, here's an idea, start your engine a few minutes early, and LET IT WARM UP. Then, problem solved... no more "rattle" and, even if you've gotten the "problem" corrected, you're not killing your engine quietly....

dustobub

If you call 2700 rpms running hard, then I don't know what you would call something like 6000rpms. The rattle happens between 2000-3000rpms which is safe for an engine to run even while its cold. Letting an engine idle for 3 minutes does no good for it, its set to idle at 700rpms, nothing is going to warm up at 700rpms. Not to flame, but none of the people responding about the rattle are running the engines hard while cold. Personally I don't rev over 3000rpms before the engine is completely warmed up and I feel that is more than safe. There is no need to get angry with people who have this problem.

freak005

Sorry for coming across angry. Wasn't my intention. However, if you're telling me that when you start your car, it immediately idles at 700RPM, i think you're mistaken. The car idles at 700RPM, when it's warm. before it is warm, it idles high.. (had mine start as high as ~2000 when it's really cold). It doesn't drop to its latent idle revs until it is warm, when it would then be safe to rev it as high/low as you want, as it won't rattle.

Perhaps revving to 2700 isn't HARD, but revving it to 2700 as soon as you start it isn't good for your engine. Running the engine for three minutes definitely does it good, as it warms up the engine to running temperature (unless it's really cold out, then it may take a few minutes longer).

Until my engines warmed, I wouldn't rev it at all. Whether it be to 2700 or 6000... Okay, I would, but I wouldn't complain about it rattling when it was cold if/when I did.

I stand by my point that running your engine at any RPM before it's warm is not good for it. Obviously, you need to start it, and it needs to run to warm up, but there's no need to worsen the early wear and tear by giving it any gas before it warms. So it takes a few minutes extra. In the long run, it will be worth it.

lucky one

Gee, why didn't I think of that. Hmmm I live in Wisconsin, gets kinda cold here, takes about 15 minutes of warmup time at idle to get to full operating temp and the rattle will stop. I start the car a minimum of six times a day --- so I now need to come up with an hour and a half extra time in my day to fix this "problem". Get real - my older mazda and my chrysler van don't rattle when cold. I do agree that racing the engine or pushing it hard before warmed up is no good for it but there seems to be an issue with this engine that needs a real fix not a work around.

freak005

Now who's getting snarky?

Pull the claws back in, you might inadvertantly hurt yourself.

I understand your point, but I was simply making one of my own, that (maybe I should have pre-empted it with) AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE, it is better for your engine to warm up to operating temperature before driving.

And just for info sake, since you're waving your 'I live in a colder climate than you' dick around, the past week, my average morning start temperature has been around -10 celcius (14 F), and it has never taken my car longer than 10 minutes to reach operating temp.

lucky one

Golly, wasn't trying to tick anyone off here - sorry if I did. Just a bit frustrated about having paid good money for a car with a problem that needs attention in the design or fix departments. At least agree that this is a problem and maybe Mazda will come up with a fix. We need to stick together on this problem to get resolution.

samueh01

I started this thread and there is no question that the noise results from a timing issue and comes from the engine and is not a harmonic from another component. You can also feel that the engine is not as smooth as when it warms up. Here is what the M-TIPS said as of Sept 2001:

Confirm noise only occurs within the VTCS(Variable Tumble Control System) operation "valve closed" period (when ECT is below 149 deg f).

This noise is currently believed to be caused by a timing issue between the VTCS plates "opening", and an ignition spark advance command. Field repair are under study at MC. Until field fix is available no repair attempts should be made except to advise customer of cause.

I'm not sure what the "Variable Tumble Control System" is but I find it hard to believe that Mazda can't figure out how to reprogram the ECU to eliminate this problem after 6 months. Also. I find it hard to believe that they could have overlooked such a problem before bringing the car to market. I thought that the 2L engine was the same as in the 626 for many years so Mazda should have had a sense of how to set the timing on the engine. I suspect that they wanted to bring a 2L engine to the ES and the P5 for marketing reasons and they thought that most people wouldn't notice the problem and they could take care of it later.

As I said before, I've had Mazda's since 1979 and have thought that Mazda makes excellent cars. The Protege is just about perfect except for this problem. If we develop a campaign and write Mazda and and bring our cars into the dealer with these complains they will have to pay attention. I wish that there was a way to disseminate this information widely to others who are not members of this group. Any ideas?

Lastly, 2,700 RPM is not that high. The engine has to go at that speed in an automatic or a 5-speed even if you gently accelerate to 20 mph. There is no way that you can reasonably drive the car and keep the RPM below 2,700.

Fulminatus

You know what? I have a hard time believing that it is a ECU problem.
Why? because not everyone has the problem. If it was a programming issue, then everyone would have this problem. Several people have already reported that they don't experience such a thing. I for one don't. Even if I don't warm up my car (which I 98% of the time do). I drive an auto. Anyone w/an auto having rattle? I'm so sure I don't have this rattle as you guys describe it. I've had my radio off and all, and I still don't hear a rattle.


I also have a hard time believing that it is harmonics.
why? Cuz what would that have to do with the engine being cold? Unless it's because something hasn't expanded yet?? Some fitting problem?

samueh01

My ES is also an auto and has the rattle problem. Why question that the problem is a timing problem that requires an ECU reprogam if Mazda admits that is the problem?

Buttersideup

Jeez, guys...why so personal?

Listen...my dealership has determined that the issue in my car is a problem with a timing advance signal being given while the Variable Tumbler Control system is open. This system drops emission on cold-start by stepping up swirling in the chamber and is one of if not the reason the Protege is ULEV. The dealership contacted Mazda, got the specs on the issue and confirmed it. Why would Mazda want this headache if it was just a heat shield rattle? C'mon...

I've done my own heat shield fix on my '93 Miata. This ain't it. Maybe what's going on in my car isn't what's up in yours...dunno why not if it's an ECU issue, but who knows. Maybe it's an ECU issue with a particular sensor not up to spec...maybe some have this bad sensor, some not.

Either case, I'll do this my way, thanks.

Buttersideup

Just a followup for all of you who think you can diagnose my car through a keyboard better than my mechanic and I can in person...lol...I removed my heat shield. Engine still rattles. Heat shield sits quitely on workbench...damned thing doesn't even vibrate.

I also put a mechanic's stethoscope all over the engine on no less than 4 cold starts. The rattle is internal and sounds to me like pre-ingnition.

If your car no longer rattles after you clamped the heat shield, great. However...you should never, ever make cocky blanket diagnoses to a group that may be experiencing an outwardly similar but radically different issue. Have you heard my car? Nope. Have I heard yours? Nope. It's extremely irresponsible to assume everyone has the same issue as you did. Note I never said that everybody should do what I'm doing to fix the problem. I did advise everyone with the issue to bring it up with their dealer...but never said that anyone else's problem is the same as mine. That's very dangerous.

BTW...IMHO warming up your car is wasteful, environmentally unfriendly and does very little to help your car cope with cold weather. Not only that, but I don't see how it's my responsibility to change my driving habits if there's a known mechanical issue with my car. I'll get it fixed, thanks.