130hp Protege 2.0L FS-DE an overstated figure?
December-10th-2002, 12:57 AM
#46
That's me!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 337
Re: Just realized something else...
Originally posted by martialcomp
The Mazda MP3 puts out 110.9 hp and 115.9 ft pounds of torque. Now, I am not sure if the MP3 has a Racing Beat exhaust or not, but the ES with the Racing Beat exhaust shows 108.3 hp and 118.8 ft pounds of torque.
This means that the ES has essentially the same hp and torque numbers as an MP3 when the Racing Beat exhaust is added?
Interesting...
The Mazda MP3 puts out 110.9 hp and 115.9 ft pounds of torque. Now, I am not sure if the MP3 has a Racing Beat exhaust or not, but the ES with the Racing Beat exhaust shows 108.3 hp and 118.8 ft pounds of torque.
This means that the ES has essentially the same hp and torque numbers as an MP3 when the Racing Beat exhaust is added?
Interesting...
The Racing Beat cat-back is just that, a full cat-back with a bigger pipe from the second cat back...
The MP3 also has advanced timing, which shows up on the dyno. You'll notice that after 5000 rpm, the stock Protege ES/5 will drop off as where the MP3 will stay up on power and torque.
December-10th-2002, 01:58 AM
#47
Demands Perfection
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 344
Curious!
I've ripped personal notes on the FS-DE before, so I'll dispense with repeating them. Others are doing that for me now.
Anyway, this is most interesting. The question is, though, is our transmission really that inefficient or is Mazda "pulling a Hyundai" and grossly overstating the engine HP? Mazda certainly knows they’re behind the curve in their small car engine offerings compared to the likes of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan, and that would be motivation to try and overstate the FS-DE’s output, if this allegation is indeed true.
At this point I’m not completely certain what to think of Mazda. If their overstatement of the Protégé’s HP is true, then that, suffice to say, is a serious pisser. This comes at the same time that they tried to initially only offer option packages for the new Mazda6 in conjunction with other packages (i.e., if you wanted a moonroof, which was presented as a single option on the web site, “you had to get the upgraded audio system, and the sport package, and the ABS/curtain airbag system, and the Premium Package, etc., etc., etc.). I found that offensively patronizing, and a shallow, transparent ploy to pocket extra bucks. Enough people complained that they’ve since adjusted this practice, but the fact that they did it in the first place isn’t encouraging in terms of supporting Mazda’s integrity in their FS-DE HP claims. I'm hopeful, in any event, that this is an honest mistake rather than deliberate deception...
If this DOES turn out to be deception, I wonder what Mazda's course of action will be. Hyundai issued a public apology and offered extended warranties to those who owned cars whose horsepower they were lied to about. If Mazda is exposed, what will they do, I wonder? This would be really bad timing for a company that's trying to turn itself around after stagnant, difficult times.
Anyway, this is most interesting. The question is, though, is our transmission really that inefficient or is Mazda "pulling a Hyundai" and grossly overstating the engine HP? Mazda certainly knows they’re behind the curve in their small car engine offerings compared to the likes of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan, and that would be motivation to try and overstate the FS-DE’s output, if this allegation is indeed true.
At this point I’m not completely certain what to think of Mazda. If their overstatement of the Protégé’s HP is true, then that, suffice to say, is a serious pisser. This comes at the same time that they tried to initially only offer option packages for the new Mazda6 in conjunction with other packages (i.e., if you wanted a moonroof, which was presented as a single option on the web site, “you had to get the upgraded audio system, and the sport package, and the ABS/curtain airbag system, and the Premium Package, etc., etc., etc.). I found that offensively patronizing, and a shallow, transparent ploy to pocket extra bucks. Enough people complained that they’ve since adjusted this practice, but the fact that they did it in the first place isn’t encouraging in terms of supporting Mazda’s integrity in their FS-DE HP claims. I'm hopeful, in any event, that this is an honest mistake rather than deliberate deception...
If this DOES turn out to be deception, I wonder what Mazda's course of action will be. Hyundai issued a public apology and offered extended warranties to those who owned cars whose horsepower they were lied to about. If Mazda is exposed, what will they do, I wonder? This would be really bad timing for a company that's trying to turn itself around after stagnant, difficult times.
December-10th-2002, 02:06 AM
#48
That's me!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 337
How do option packages on the Mazda 6 relate to the Protege motor??
That doesn't make any sense...
The FS-DE isn't under-rated...The tranny isn't as efficiient as it could be. Get over it.
And yes, Mazda wants to make money, so they have options set up in packages. I'm sorry if that means in order to get a sun-roof you have to get a few other things. A lot of car companies do that.
That doesn't make any sense...
The FS-DE isn't under-rated...The tranny isn't as efficiient as it could be. Get over it.
And yes, Mazda wants to make money, so they have options set up in packages. I'm sorry if that means in order to get a sun-roof you have to get a few other things. A lot of car companies do that.
December-10th-2002, 04:31 AM
#49
Demands Perfection
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 344
Point Of Information
The options initially offered with the Mazda 6 were far and away more prohibitive than any other manufacturer when Mazda first initiated the web configuration function for this model. That's what I was referencing. You'll note complaints about this early problem on many forums, including this one. It isn't a matter of not appreciating that all manufacturers bundle options together; Mazda was doing it for everything and presenting it as if you could get various options separately. This was deceptive and wrong, and they corrected it accordingly, after a massive enthusiast uproar.
Secondly, it was this deceptive practice that paralleled the possibility of Mazda overstating HP for the FS-DE; that's the connection. Such wasn't to suggest that Mazda indeed was (or is) overstating HP, it was just a possible connection that, if proven true, was an indication of Mazda's recent unethical behavior.
So, to sum up, I didn't mean to suggest that Mazda lied about HP disclosure, I meant I would understand why if they indeed did. They're behind the curve with the FS-DE, and now it appears quite clear they're also behind in transmissions (for their small car offering).
This will all change when the next generation Protege (or whatever it'll be called) comes about, however, and it doesn't suggest that the Protege doesn't still have its virtues. It's just a slightly dated design that has been surpassed by more modern competitors with better powertrains. Too bad Sentra, Civic, and Corolla all look so lame, as they honestly do have their virtues, as well.
Secondly, it was this deceptive practice that paralleled the possibility of Mazda overstating HP for the FS-DE; that's the connection. Such wasn't to suggest that Mazda indeed was (or is) overstating HP, it was just a possible connection that, if proven true, was an indication of Mazda's recent unethical behavior.
So, to sum up, I didn't mean to suggest that Mazda lied about HP disclosure, I meant I would understand why if they indeed did. They're behind the curve with the FS-DE, and now it appears quite clear they're also behind in transmissions (for their small car offering).
This will all change when the next generation Protege (or whatever it'll be called) comes about, however, and it doesn't suggest that the Protege doesn't still have its virtues. It's just a slightly dated design that has been surpassed by more modern competitors with better powertrains. Too bad Sentra, Civic, and Corolla all look so lame, as they honestly do have their virtues, as well.
December-10th-2002, 04:59 AM
#50
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: GA
Posts: 460
Didnt several people say thier 130 HP rated Protege dynoed at 110 rear wheel...ooops...Im new to the rice scene...make that Front wheel HP?
A 15% loss due to powertain is not excessive and quite normal. Im not seeing anything wrong with Mazdas engines, HP ratings, or transmissions.
So the Pro is geared a little on the low side and gets worse mileage than some of the others? Is this what this is all about anyway?
Every car will lose 15% due to powertain losses (with a manual, more with an automatic) so what is the problem?
Actually, rear wheel drive cars lose around 15%. I guess a front wheel drive car should be more efficient than that?
A 15% loss due to powertain is not excessive and quite normal. Im not seeing anything wrong with Mazdas engines, HP ratings, or transmissions.
So the Pro is geared a little on the low side and gets worse mileage than some of the others? Is this what this is all about anyway?
Every car will lose 15% due to powertain losses (with a manual, more with an automatic) so what is the problem?
Actually, rear wheel drive cars lose around 15%. I guess a front wheel drive car should be more efficient than that?
December-10th-2002, 05:14 AM
#51
That's me!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 337
Re: Point Of Information
Originally posted by ProtegeMaster
The options initially offered with the Mazda 6 were far and away more prohibitive than any other manufacturer when Mazda first initiated the web configuration function for this model. That's what I was referencing. You'll note complaints about this early problem on many forums, including this one. It isn't a matter of not appreciating that all manufacturers bundle options together; Mazda was doing it for everything and presenting it as if you could get various options separately. This was deceptive and wrong, and they corrected it accordingly, after a massive enthusiast uproar.
The options initially offered with the Mazda 6 were far and away more prohibitive than any other manufacturer when Mazda first initiated the web configuration function for this model. That's what I was referencing. You'll note complaints about this early problem on many forums, including this one. It isn't a matter of not appreciating that all manufacturers bundle options together; Mazda was doing it for everything and presenting it as if you could get various options separately. This was deceptive and wrong, and they corrected it accordingly, after a massive enthusiast uproar.
Secondly, it was this deceptive practice that paralleled the possibility of Mazda overstating HP for the FS-DE; that's the connection. Such wasn't to suggest that Mazda indeed was (or is) overstating HP, it was just a possible connection that, if proven true, was an indication of Mazda's recent unethical behavior.
I seriously doubt that Mazda has overstated the horsepower rating of the FS-DE. They got caught with their proverbial pants down with the whole Miata fiasco, and I doubt they would try to get away with it again. From what I have seen, the majority of Proteges with the 2.0 liter motor have all dyno'd in similar numbers, and the MP3 has come in slightly above that.So, to sum up, I didn't mean to suggest that Mazda lied about HP disclosure, I meant I would understand why if they indeed did. They're behind the curve with the FS-DE, and now it appears quite clear they're also behind in transmissions (for their small car offering).
This will all change when the next generation Protege (or whatever it'll be called) comes about, however, and it doesn't suggest that the Protege doesn't still have its virtues. It's just a slightly dated design that has been surpassed by more modern competitors with better powertrains. Too bad Sentra, Civic, and Corolla all look so lame, as they honestly do have their virtues, as well.
The best and truest version of variable valve timing I have seen is the BMW 7 series (soon to be all models). And that design is the best balance for gas mileage and usable power.
***DISCLAIMER: This post reflects my opinion with some fact, thank you***
December-10th-2002, 08:01 AM
#52
Protege Newbie
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 44
Re: Re: Point Of Information
Originally posted by StuttersC
And variable valve timing is over-rated when it comes to V-TEC or VVTL-i...It moves the power band way up which isn't suitable for around town. Seriously, who the hell wants to cruise at 6000 rpm just to be in the power band?
The best and truest version of variable valve timing I have seen is the BMW 7 series (soon to be all models). And that design is the best balance for gas mileage and usable power.
And variable valve timing is over-rated when it comes to V-TEC or VVTL-i...It moves the power band way up which isn't suitable for around town. Seriously, who the hell wants to cruise at 6000 rpm just to be in the power band?
The best and truest version of variable valve timing I have seen is the BMW 7 series (soon to be all models). And that design is the best balance for gas mileage and usable power.
December-10th-2002, 08:16 AM
#53
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 133
actually vtec is a good solution for making higher power in smaller engines (it means no need for forced induction which reduces the reliability of the engine and life)...the # of warranty claims on the actual vtec system ever since its inception in 1988 has been "0" a pretty impressive number [pretty neat record]
also allowing the cam profiles to change to wilder specs gives the engine a 2 personality trait...on the low end it gives you a seamless idle, class leading emissions, and class leading fuel economy at the expense of low end grunt. (my pr5 shakes when i rev it in neutral meaning the engine isn't properly balanced)...yet downshift and floor it and you all of a sudden have acceleration
do take notice that most other mfgrs have been or are making copies of the system...though they are not teh same (toyota, bmw, porsche, nissan...read this article http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovati...9/article.html ) or renaming its engines to make the owners think they have some variable valve timing and control (zetec anyone?)
though the engine is weaker on the low end i find it a good trade off for less pollution, greater gas mileage, yet good passing power if needed
i like the pr5 for its more ample supply of low end torque but it quicky runs out of steam and kinda of disappointing when trying to accelerate in the higher rpms
also allowing the cam profiles to change to wilder specs gives the engine a 2 personality trait...on the low end it gives you a seamless idle, class leading emissions, and class leading fuel economy at the expense of low end grunt. (my pr5 shakes when i rev it in neutral meaning the engine isn't properly balanced)...yet downshift and floor it and you all of a sudden have acceleration
do take notice that most other mfgrs have been or are making copies of the system...though they are not teh same (toyota, bmw, porsche, nissan...read this article http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovati...9/article.html ) or renaming its engines to make the owners think they have some variable valve timing and control (zetec anyone?)
though the engine is weaker on the low end i find it a good trade off for less pollution, greater gas mileage, yet good passing power if needed
i like the pr5 for its more ample supply of low end torque but it quicky runs out of steam and kinda of disappointing when trying to accelerate in the higher rpms
Last edited by jaje; December-10th-2002 at 08:18 AM.
December-10th-2002, 12:10 PM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 336
Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
Umm, everyone here test drove their cars before buying them, no?
If the performance is so awful, why did you buy the car? I mean, it had to be pretty clear when you bought the car that it was useless as a drag car. Just shift a bit earlier and be on your merry way.
Umm, everyone here test drove their cars before buying them, no?
If the performance is so awful, why did you buy the car? I mean, it had to be pretty clear when you bought the car that it was useless as a drag car. Just shift a bit earlier and be on your merry way.
December-10th-2002, 12:57 PM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,122
Re: Re: Re: Yep...
Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
Here's an example of the amazingly efficient toyota motors when they encounter problems.
<picture of gruesome engine carnage deleted>
Here's an example of the amazingly efficient toyota motors when they encounter problems.
<picture of gruesome engine carnage deleted>
What happened?!? That's gotta be one of the worst broken blocks I've ever seen. It's obvious that it threw a rod, but why?This may rank right up there with one of my best stories... some of my college friends had a Datsun 510 oval track car with an L16. During a race, the driver accidentally overrevved it to ~9500 rpm (he was supposed to shift at 8500) and it threw a rod so hard that the inside of the passenger side fender got all dented up by flying pieces of block and con rod!
An engine with a softball-sized hole in the block is an impressive sight. 
December-10th-2002, 01:07 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 133
Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
Umm, everyone here test drove their cars before buying them, no?
If the performance is so awful, why did you buy the car? I mean, it had to be pretty clear when you bought the car that it was useless as a drag car. Just shift a bit earlier and be on your merry way.
Umm, everyone here test drove their cars before buying them, no?
If the performance is so awful, why did you buy the car? I mean, it had to be pretty clear when you bought the car that it was useless as a drag car. Just shift a bit earlier and be on your merry way.
December-10th-2002, 01:09 PM
#57
Demands Perfection
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 344
Still Reliable, At Least!
I've tended to be too negative in many-a posts, but that shouldn't mean the FS-DE has no virtues at all! I do personally wish we had the equivallent to VTEC in our Proteges though, as I don't consider it overrated. It's demonstrated to improve efficiency and yield better power across a greater engine operating range-- That's surely why everyone is going to their own version of VTEC, be them Toyota, etc.. I bet, in fact, that if we DID have variable valve timing in our Pro's, pretty much not a single person would be complaining about it, vs. those who say it's "overrated" now.
I'm personally fine with the power produced by the FS-DE for my purposes. I appreciate those who mod their cars and like speed (just be safe about it!
), but I've always been a pretty modest driver, myself-- Sometimes I'll open her up, but most of the time I'm okay with the feel of the Pro as is, in terms of speed, so whether the public HP statement on Mazda's part is accurate or not doesn't matter to me that much. If somehow this was an overstatement, I'd be pissed about it by virtue of a violation of trust, but otherwise it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Bear in mind I'm coming from a trusty old B13 Nissan Sentra with the GA16DE (110 HP). I always thought she was reasonably zippy for just being a little 1.6 liter, but the Protege is still noticeably faster than my old Sentra.
I continue to maintain that the FS-DE is a older design and needs replacement, but it's still a very reliable engine, and reliability has always been my first, most critical demand in a car. The FS-DE is pretty much right up there with Toyota engines in reliability, and I find this most excellent.
And regarding the new BMW 7 Series. Daaaamn! Has anyone seen the computer system in that thing?! A car complete with a mouse/joystick is pretty different, that's for sure! (I guess it'd better be for $75k!)
I'm personally fine with the power produced by the FS-DE for my purposes. I appreciate those who mod their cars and like speed (just be safe about it!
), but I've always been a pretty modest driver, myself-- Sometimes I'll open her up, but most of the time I'm okay with the feel of the Pro as is, in terms of speed, so whether the public HP statement on Mazda's part is accurate or not doesn't matter to me that much. If somehow this was an overstatement, I'd be pissed about it by virtue of a violation of trust, but otherwise it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Bear in mind I'm coming from a trusty old B13 Nissan Sentra with the GA16DE (110 HP). I always thought she was reasonably zippy for just being a little 1.6 liter, but the Protege is still noticeably faster than my old Sentra. I continue to maintain that the FS-DE is a older design and needs replacement, but it's still a very reliable engine, and reliability has always been my first, most critical demand in a car. The FS-DE is pretty much right up there with Toyota engines in reliability, and I find this most excellent.
And regarding the new BMW 7 Series. Daaaamn! Has anyone seen the computer system in that thing?!
A car complete with a mouse/joystick is pretty different, that's for sure! (I guess it'd better be for $75k!)
Last edited by ProtegeMaster; December-10th-2002 at 01:13 PM.
December-10th-2002, 01:50 PM
#58
Protege Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: GA
Posts: 460
Originally posted by jaje
though the engine is weaker on the low end i find it a good trade off for less pollution, greater gas mileage, yet good passing power if needed
though the engine is weaker on the low end i find it a good trade off for less pollution, greater gas mileage, yet good passing power if needed
Good low end, mid range, and top end. After all, that is the purpose, so why do the Hondas suffer down low?
I wasnt aware of this characteristic of VTEC sacrificing low end to make power up top, after all, thats the exact thing that VTEC is supposed to eliminate.
December-10th-2002, 02:00 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 133
Originally posted by Mach 1
I thought the whole purpose of VTEC was to get the "best of both worlds"?
Good low end, mid range, and top end. After all, that is the purpose, so why do the Hondas suffer down low?
I wasnt aware of this characteristic of VTEC sacrificing low end to make power up top, after all, thats the exact thing that VTEC is supposed to eliminate.
I thought the whole purpose of VTEC was to get the "best of both worlds"?
Good low end, mid range, and top end. After all, that is the purpose, so why do the Hondas suffer down low?
I wasnt aware of this characteristic of VTEC sacrificing low end to make power up top, after all, thats the exact thing that VTEC is supposed to eliminate.
December-11th-2002, 02:08 PM
#60
Passion for Zoom Zoom!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 372
I just read through this entire topic. Good points were made. Now for my thoughts...
The FS-DE is an old design and an outdated engine. The 2003 Protege/Protege5 will be the last cars to use it now that the 626 has gone away. This engine dates back long before the Protege or 323 names were introduced to the U.S. It has been substantially improved and it is very reliable. For its purpose, it serves quite well. Look to the new family of engines for the 2004 Mazda3 (2.0L and 2.3L) and you will find continuously variable valve timing, smooth and quiet operation, improved fuel efficiency, etc. (A note on the Mazda3... look for it in the upcoming autoshow circuit. The final design has already been approved for production and shown to dealer principals at the dealer show in Las Vegas a couple of months ago.)
Did Mazda lie about the horsepower rating? No. The front-wheel horsepower ratings between 100-110whp are fully expected for a front-wheel drive manual transmission with 130 crank hp. I don't know what happened with the Corolla, but the rest of the Toyota line-up you can find dyno's for show the expected drivetrain loss. Look at other cars with a 2.0L engine with similar power and you will find similar whp ratings. (BTW, AEM's dynos for the 1.8L and 2.0L Protege are identical... something's wrong.)
The Miata fiasco was not an attempt by Mazda to gain publicity or to purposely portray false numbers. It was an error in testing the vehicle without US-spec emissions. Mazda solved the problem by offering to buy back the vehicle (refund full price plus taxes) or giving the owners free scheduled maintenance for 50,000 miles and a $500 debit card.
The Corolla is designed to transport a person from point A to point B and do it efficiently. If you bought a Protege for this, then, indeed, you bought the wrong car. The Protege was designed for the driving enthusiast, and it still delivers decent economy. Ask Toyota to turn the Corolla into a car as fun to drive as the Protege and watch its fuel mileage drop as low drag is traded for more grip, low weight is traded for chassis and suspension enhancements, high gearing and efficient engine tuning is traded for a broad powerband and driveability, and so on and so on.
The 2.0L actually gets slightly better fuel economy than the 1.8L FP-DE I have in my '99 ES. The trade-off for that efficiency is less high-end power, a shorter powerband, and a whole lot more vibrating (I don't know what caused that). And the funny thing is that the 1.8L dyno's with about the same peak horsepower. So, should Mazda trade fun-to-drive virtues for more fuel and power efficiency? Maybe if we combine Toyota's high gearing and Honda's VTEC, we'll get a nice combination of slow acceleration and a lack of low-end torque. It'll get wonderful mileage and will give good power peaks on the dyno. If that's all you want, I'm sure someone will build it (not Mazda), but don't come whining when you can't catch that Metro off the light.
The FS-DE is an old design and an outdated engine. The 2003 Protege/Protege5 will be the last cars to use it now that the 626 has gone away. This engine dates back long before the Protege or 323 names were introduced to the U.S. It has been substantially improved and it is very reliable. For its purpose, it serves quite well. Look to the new family of engines for the 2004 Mazda3 (2.0L and 2.3L) and you will find continuously variable valve timing, smooth and quiet operation, improved fuel efficiency, etc. (A note on the Mazda3... look for it in the upcoming autoshow circuit. The final design has already been approved for production and shown to dealer principals at the dealer show in Las Vegas a couple of months ago.)
Did Mazda lie about the horsepower rating? No. The front-wheel horsepower ratings between 100-110whp are fully expected for a front-wheel drive manual transmission with 130 crank hp. I don't know what happened with the Corolla, but the rest of the Toyota line-up you can find dyno's for show the expected drivetrain loss. Look at other cars with a 2.0L engine with similar power and you will find similar whp ratings. (BTW, AEM's dynos for the 1.8L and 2.0L Protege are identical... something's wrong.)
The Miata fiasco was not an attempt by Mazda to gain publicity or to purposely portray false numbers. It was an error in testing the vehicle without US-spec emissions. Mazda solved the problem by offering to buy back the vehicle (refund full price plus taxes) or giving the owners free scheduled maintenance for 50,000 miles and a $500 debit card.
The Corolla is designed to transport a person from point A to point B and do it efficiently. If you bought a Protege for this, then, indeed, you bought the wrong car. The Protege was designed for the driving enthusiast, and it still delivers decent economy. Ask Toyota to turn the Corolla into a car as fun to drive as the Protege and watch its fuel mileage drop as low drag is traded for more grip, low weight is traded for chassis and suspension enhancements, high gearing and efficient engine tuning is traded for a broad powerband and driveability, and so on and so on.
The 2.0L actually gets slightly better fuel economy than the 1.8L FP-DE I have in my '99 ES. The trade-off for that efficiency is less high-end power, a shorter powerband, and a whole lot more vibrating (I don't know what caused that). And the funny thing is that the 1.8L dyno's with about the same peak horsepower. So, should Mazda trade fun-to-drive virtues for more fuel and power efficiency? Maybe if we combine Toyota's high gearing and Honda's VTEC, we'll get a nice combination of slow acceleration and a lack of low-end torque. It'll get wonderful mileage and will give good power peaks on the dyno. If that's all you want, I'm sure someone will build it (not Mazda), but don't come whining when you can't catch that Metro off the light.