W.O.M.P. Supercharger for 2.0L proteges
 

THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED. DEVELOPMENT FOR THE WOMP SUPERCHARGER KIT HAS STOPPED...LEAVING THREAD UP AS THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD INFO IF ANYONE CHOOSES TO MAKE THEIR OWN S/C KIT
W.O.M.P. Supercharger Kit

• Powerdyne BD-11a Supercharger w/ 1yr factory warranty
• Haltech F10X fuel computer
• custom mounting brackets and pulley
• mandrel bent aluminum piping
• silicone hose w/ reducers
• t-bolt clamps
• high flow conical air filter
• Bosch bypass (recirc) valve
• FAL slim-line fan (your color choice blue,red,yellow,black)
• All associated nuts/bolts/connectors/wire ties/washers/etc.

Now some explanations.

#1. Why I chose a centrifugal blower over a roots blower.

I originally started this project with an Eaton M62 that I was going to mount above the exhaust manifold and just fabricate a discharge chute for the compressed air. This idea was doomed from the start. There are numerous reasons why I stayed away from the roots blower on this application. I'll just hit the highlights.

*excessive heat, cutting and splicing of critical engine harnesses, TB relocation, compressor location not ideal, not cosmetically pleasing, lack of ability to create higher boost pressures, sheer weight, etc. *

I knew a centrifugal blower would be a better design for this vehicle because of it's more compact design, ease of installation, greater power produced (more scalable), nicer appearance, etc. The roots blowers are INSANELY cheap....don't think I didn't try to make it work. In the end practicality won out over thriftiness.

#2. Why I chose the Powerdyne Supercharger for this kit.

Originally I didn't! This has been an evolving process and I've done my best to inform everyone along the way of obsticles I've faced and what I've done to overcome them. One of those obsticles was to make sure I could design something simple enough for a shade-tree mechanic with basic handtools to be able to install this in their driveway without modification. This means no taping of the oil pan, no welding, no cutting metal (unless you want the FMIC option), etc. I knew that I wanted a "self-contained" blower. The only two self-contained blowers I have found are Powerdyne and ATI's Procharger. I LOVE the procharger. It is an amazing unit and very possibly the best supercharger on the market today. However, procharger doesn't feel that there is any money to be made supporting the Protege community and was unwilling to negotiate with me at all on pricing. Just their headunit cost me $2100. This is obviously pricing me out of my target price. I continued looking. A friend of mine who is a semi-pro drag racer turned me on to Powerdyne. He has a 5.0L mustang with a powerdyne blower and after talking with him about it and driving the car and hearing it (or not!) I was sold. The powerdyne blower has a few advantages over other superchargers. They are self-contained so there is no oil lines or coolant lines used. They are less expensive than a similar Procharger blower. They are internally belt-driven, not gear driven. They make NO NOISE. Even under full boost with no hood on you can't hear a tell-tale supercharger whine. Since a recirc valve is used very little discharge noise is heard and with a hood on the car none is heard. Because they aren't lubricated or gear driven they do not add excessive heat to the intake charge. Powerdyne shows 20-30* above ambient temp increases on their 6psi Mustang kit. This is AMAZING considering a turbo will add about 150* WITH intercooling. There are numerous reasons why this is a great blower for the car and I've touched on some of the better ones and I'm sure they will be discussed later on.

#3. How do you address engine control and fuel management?

I have gone through several options these past few weeks all the while knowing that one was better than the others. FMU's and voltage clamps do what they're supposed to do but they are band-aids. Stand-alone fuel management is the only reliable way to control how your vehicle runs and guarantee performance gains and reliability un-matched by other devices that "trick" the car into doing something. I will be using and including the HALTECH F10X stand alone fuel computer with EVERY kit. This unit (including protege-specific harness and sensors) retails for $1100. If you subrtract the $310 I was spending on the fmu and clamp you add $790 to the overall parts cost. I have only added $200 to the overall cost of the kit. Those unfamiliar with HALTECH it's a safe bet to say that they have one of the best engine management systems in the world. This new unit is WINDOWS TUNEABLE making it much easier to adjust later. I will provide your base maps and you will need to dyno-tune to correct for a few variables I have no control over. The F10X includes, ecu, protege-specific wiring harness, 2 power relays, air temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, MAP sensor, throttle position sensor, com cable (for laptop), windows software and a users guide. The F10X can do amazing things such as (but not limited to) Turbo timer (not needed but neat), Torque converter control (for your auto guys), rev/speed limiter control, thermofan, intercooler fan, shift light, VICS control (uh-huh), auxillary fuel pump, traction control, etc. I could spend hours going over the depth and range of this unit but I won't. Just know that THIS is how you want to control and tune any forced induction car. (www.haltech.com)

#4. What other mods will I need for this kit to work on my car?

This is often overlooked when adding a serious power-adder to a vehicle. The rest of the system must be able keep up with all of the extra air you're now cramming into the vehicle. I will be creating the intake, Haltech will handle the fuel, stock ignition is plenty good enough. That just leaves exhaust. Right now my car has the OBX 4-1 header on and I have noticed that it opens up the engine bay a lot which comes in handy when installing this blower. Also, it allows the engine to breather a lot better than the stock exhaust would. IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU UPGRADE YOUR EXHAUST TO INCLUDE A HEADER OF SOME KIND AND A HIGH-FLOW CAT (if you need it). I suggest the OBX header from protegegarage.com for those who do not have a visual emissions inspection. I suggest the Wagner header and DP for those who do have visual inspections. With a proper tune on the Haltech you will not throw a CEL with one cat and you will pass a sniffer test (again if properly tuned). I do not have any emissions testing here and sadly cannot pre-tune the ecu so you can pass emissions. This will either have to be done by yourself or a compitent tuner.

Aside from exhaust everything needed to make this run well will be included in the kit. Of course you will need to run a minimum of 91 octane unless you feel your tuning skills are THAT good. Also, the stock fuel system has been proven to hold well over 250whp with tuning. At this time I dont think any upgrades are needed to the fuel system.

#5. What happened to the front mount intercooler idea?

Intercooling became an issue when I was working on using the Procharger blower. ATI sells their superchargers with a small front mount intercooler because their blowers have internal gears and gear oil that get hot and add heat to the intake charge. This in turn makes the system less efficient and an intercooler is REQUIRED to keep the temps at an acceptable level. With the Powerdyne this is not a concern. Powerdynes are internally belt driven so they produce no additonal heat or gear whine. Also since they aren't driven by hot exhaust gas they don't add 300* temps to their charge. Another great feature of the Powerdyne is in case of failure. Eventually the internal belt inside the blower will break. This is not a big problem at all. Should the belt break while you're driving the car YOUR CAR REVERTS BACK TO STOCK. It will idle and run like normal with the only sideaffect being no boost. Now, should you insert an intercooler into the mix then engine will actually have to suck harder to get air in it will cause some slight driveability issues. Intercooler can be added and will most likely be an option at one set price (shooting for $650) for both kits.

#6. What additonal maintaince will be needed with a supercharger?

Better keep an eye on your tires! :evilgrin: Honestly, none. You will want to make sure your vehicle is in tip-top shape at all times but you should be doing this anyway! Powerdyne blowers contain 4 bearing packs and a drive belt. Typically these last for about 55Kmiles. At that time Powerdyne suggests a rebuild of the blower. I can rebuild the headunit for you with upgraded bearings and a full Kevlar GATES belt for about $250. After the upgrade the belt shouldn't need replacing for about 75K miles and the bearings should never need replacing again. Compare $250 every 50K miles to the cost of additonal oil changes, synthetic oil, octane boosters, etc that a turbo requires and it's VERY reasonable.

#7. How much power will this supercharge make?

Good question, don't know myself. Judging by similar products on similar vehicles I would (and used to say) about 170whp @ 7psi. This, however, doesn't take into account that the powerdyne is a much larger blower capable of much higher cfm flow rates. Doesn't take into account the Haltech engine management, doesn't take into account our larger 2.0L block (versus the hondas 1.6L), etc. I do not like to quote numbers so I will make a prediction: with haltech tuned by someone who knows what they're doing....93 octane...6psi....200whp. Not a problem at all. The inclusion of the Haltech increases the potency of this product that much more. Our cars are tuned horribly from the factory and band-aid fixes like resistors and vaccuum-based fuel adders don't tune it properly. Sure they work but not up to the level of this fuel controller. I will be shocked if I can't throw down at LEAST 180-200whp on the dyno. ... 9psi guys may wish to invest in stock in a tire company.

#8. Why does this require me to remove my AC?"

There are several important reasons why the AC has to come out. It's easier to understand if you know the first major rule of supercharging...the blower pulley has to be in a direct line of sight from the crank pulley. As with a turbo charger you are forced to mount the blower in a specific location so it can be driven by the crank. With a turbo it has to mount to the head at the exhaust manifold. Sure it can be mounted in a different location and a sub-standard header used to feed it but you sacrifice doing that. The same is true for a supercharger. I could've made 6 different brackets and idler pulleys and gear drives to mount the blower on the drivers side and still retain the AC. This is a very poor way to deliver power to a supercharger. The more connections you have between the crank pulley and the blower pulley, the less efficient you are. Now, why the AC compressor? Well, this supercharger is designed to increase overall driveability. Removing the powersteering pump severly hurts driveability. I understand about heat...trust me. We have 99* days here with 90% humidity and no wind. I like AC but not as much as I like boost. In order for the blower to be able to receive air and still fit in that same plane with the crank pulley it has to be mounted up top on the passenger if the engine bay. The ps pump is very tiny and neatly tucks up under the blower right near the engine block. This does 2 things. 1. it takes up less space that is used for the charge air and 2. placing the smaller ps pump up close to the block in the lower spot provides more "belt wrap" on the blower pulley to prevent slipping. Another thing to keep in mind is the belt routing. The belts and pulleys all have to spin the correct way pump properly. you cant just throw another pulley inbetween two pulleys without reversing their direction....now you've got to add ANOTHER pulley to correct that. There is very little space as it is. If it's any consolation Powerdyne was working on a 1.6L honda civic supercharger kit. It required removal of the ac also. Vortech had a big recall on their 1.6L and 1.8L honda/acura superchargers because the AC would kick on and destroy the drive belt. Their ac has to go also. Believe me when I say I'm not being lazy and taking the easy way out. Compromises have to be made somewhere.

wow! f'in awesome Matty..you've added a LOT of features to it, and what a killer price. I cant wait to see it all done and check it out.
I only have one issue, for those of us who live in emmissions states where there is no sniffer or visual test (obd1 + cars only) we have an ECU tester, they plug into the OBD system and check for codes, no codes no prob you pass and get your sticker. How will the halltech deal with this? Does the FX10 replace the ECU or piggyback onto it..you can link me to some info if you want

I'm not 100% sure about the Haltechs ability to retain OBDII use. It is a piggyback system which plugs in-line through it's own harness and then you have to run and terminate your own map sensor and IAT sensor (included). I would assume it would work just fine.....but when you assume....you make an ass of Uma thruman. I'll search haltech's website for more info and post what I find.

Yes Karen. $10off!!

"Also, the stock fuel system has been proven to hold well over 250whp with tuning. At this time I dont think any upgrades are needed to the fuel system" :bt:

p.s. with the haltech you can add whatever size injectors you want and it'll run them just like stock.

Wow. Just wow.

Sorry, I thought we were looking for an answer regarding the Haltech and emission testing.

haven't found out about OBDII yet. All indicators point to "YES" it will work....

done question #8.

discussion on the topic
http://www.solo2.org/cgi-bin/ultimat...pic/7/597.html

someone else is developing a protege supercharger??.....ah, nevermind, I forgot your name was Shawn!!

The E6K is oldschool and outdated. The F10X is far more advanced (minus ignition control). But to give you an idea of how powerful the F10X is I can drop in ANY E6K map and everything that can be controlled by the F10X will automatically drop in and run. That is awesome.

whats the verdict on auto trannys can it handle this massive sc? Or will it need a a cryotreat or something along those lines?

no I don't think it's a problem at all.....the F10X wires in-line with the ECU and doesn't override anything but fuel.

The way I understand it is that the Haltech will work just fine. I am not 100% positive though.

In all honesty, the system is very easy to remove and could be done in a few hours and the car would be reverted back to stock....you'll have a leaf blower under the hood though but it'll be back to stock.

HANDS DOWN...THE BEST POST EVER. You covered off lots of questions..and it shows that you understand what people are looking for in a kit!!!!

WOW!

As for the F10 or F10X....it is a great solution...easy to handle/install/program. Great for the PSI and HPs you are thinking of!!

Definately watching this thread!

the way I see it is, Im gonna install the blower, if need be tip the tech a 20 spot and clear the codes right in front of him....

lol @ Roddimus
Yes Im Shawn and I have a hp addiction :bt:

What concerns me is at least here in Illinois, when you bring your car to be tested for emissions, you have to give your car to a technician for testing. The car is put on rollers and is run through the gears by the technician. Now some of these people aren't exactly the most gentle, and if I'm still boosting without a Haltech in place to get around the codes, I'm thinking I'm going to be getting a ride home in a tow truck from the testing station.

no no no....I think if you leave the hood closed and the F10X hooked up (even with boost). Your car will sniff just fine. I also think it'll pass an OBDII test but i'm not certain. You can always tune the Haltech 2 ways...it has switchable maps.....tune it for boost on map 1, map 2 should be an all NA map. (also good increase the belt breaks). Before you get to where you're going just remove the belt....no boost, car runs NA.

Does this work?? Cars aren't required to have powersteering are they?? I hate your states!! So what if I had to marry my sister. I can run Cat-less!!!

I want. I need. I must have!!

W.O.M.P.!!

yaaaaa ...now Im glad I told you about it. Have you seen the discussion on the link I gave regarding IC's...how much room are we gonna have in the bay, enough for an aftercooler like Vortechs?

no aftercooler....I'm not a fan of water cooling at all.. very ineffective. I am including an FMIC option at a very low cost for those who want the look/gains.

Also, aftercooling is used on the vortechs because they aren't as efficient due their drawing of hot engine oil into the blower and large compressors....Take a look inside the powerdyne blower I posted and you'll see 2 things....

#1. Internally stepped-up gearing @ 3.05:1 ratio....means INSTANT low end boost and gobs more low-end power than most other superchargers.

and

#2. The belt drive elminates all need for coolant/oil/lubrication. No additonal heat added there and the lack of "gears" like the procharger means no fluid for the gearing to bite through.

I think this is a much better design....especially considering that AREA51 used the vortech blower and you see what horrible problems they had.


havent re-checked the thread yet.

but you forget that when you compress air you raise its ambient temperature, I agree that the powerdyne is more efficient and introduces less mechanical heat into the system, but as was pointed out pv=nrt which is the ideal gas law, you cant compress air without heating it.
Lets get one (yours) up and running, do some serious data logging of intake temps, this that and the other and go from there. Who knows, we may be just fine but until we start testing and going over numbers, we'll have no clue. I will probably add an IC of some sort to the base PSI kit for longevity...

yeah, Powerdyne has already done this. The same blower at 6psi on their Mustang 5.0L kit only added 20-30* temps above ambient.....I think a turbo adds about 200*+ but after intercooling it's only about 80-100* above.....

I personally WILL have the intercooler on my car as I want it to run boost levels above what I'm selling to you guys. For a 4-6psi kit it's really overkill and you could probably save that money for some new tires or a new clutch.

Nice, thanks.

I think a lot of people/doubters thought this was merely a whim for me that I hadn't put any effort into thinking this through or looking for the best pieces possible. That is just not the case. There is about 5X's as much info I could've written about the SC that I didn't because it would take too long. I figured if someone had a question that I didn't answer I could just update the list.

I have been making plans for some engine work in the future, and have been disappointed at the lack of a supercharger option. I am bummed about the loss of the AC. However, the one thing I am waiting for is some real tests and numbers. Are there plans to produce some?

hahaha, yup. Not many people will fork over $2700 without knowing what their getting in return! I'm hoping to have everything fully assembled and on the car for testing in another month or so. I'm doing this 100% out of pocket so it's taken longer than it would normally take me to do this.

p.s. I can't believe how attached people are to their AC. I understand it's nice to have but people concerned with power have to make sacrifices somewhere. I'd much rather lose my supercharger and add 100whp than keep my ac with a turbo and risk boost spiking, excess heat, additional maintaince, etc...

This blower will produce gobs of power down low but power will be made with rpm's.....it will feel like lag to someone who doesn't know what to look for. In all honesty you won't feel "boost" per se. It'll feel more like a V6 under the hood. Power just gets stronger and stronger as you wind it out. MSP's, MSM's, GT's, Redlines, SVT's better watch out!

Yeah, i know the feeling of a supercharger vs. the feeling of a turbo. I'd rather have turbo than a normal ass n/a powerband like ours (especially with no vvtl-i-like-stuff), but then i think i would rather have an SC over a turbo (especially for a better price!).

What kind of effects to superchargers usually have on gas mileage?

when you do let me know. also, let me know how you were able to keep the belt from slipping when the AC comes on. Vortech had a lot of problems with their blowers and AC on the honda/acura models.

I sincerely wish you the best. ;peace;

Depends on how you drive it. If you stay out of boost all the time you'll probably get much better gas mileage due to the Haltech beng able to tune for "out-of-boost" driving. If you drive like me then you just enjoy the trip and don't worry about the gas bill.

The problem with the slippage due to the a/c compressor is that the electric clutch is either full on or full off, and when it comes full on the compressor has to fight the initial pressure of the a/c refrigerant, putting a high initial load on the entire belt system. If there was a way to incrementally engage the compressor clutch, you might be able to get around the slippage problem.

Nah, screw it - I'll just put a smowmobile engine in the back to run the compressor.

hahah, I looked into using a small electric motor...1/3hp but it isn't enough to turn the compressor and you still have to overcome the pre-formed hard lines routing. At least when I relocate the powersteering I have soft lines to work with. Makes it much easier. Also t3h powersteering loop will be removed since it's all but useless anyway. Yet another clutter-item that can be removed.

What a great idea and well thought-out plan!

Only two questions - because i care. You are sticking your neck out here and i would hate for you to get burned. I really want this to succeed.
1. How many systems will you need to sell to break even at that price? (don't tell - just think the number)
2. How many people will commit to buy (and give up their A/C) i.e. firm money deposit?

I just want to make sure you don't get stuck when you offer the system for sale and people start bailing out because of the a/c issue...

If i am way off-base here - please gently correct me. I am *not* throwing rocks.

In all honesty....I can't say this loud enough....I designed this kit first and foremost for me. Someone once asked why there was no supercharger for the protege and the answer was "it's too expensive and costs too much". When I tried to debate the fact that it could be done everyone told me 1 of 2 things.... "you're an idiot" or "prove it". I'm proving it.

The loss of ac is apparently a big deal to a lot of people....I call these people "not me". :blue: I would've loved to keep the AC but there are so many reasons why it HAS to go and only one to keep it. I think Paul said it best "sacrifices have to be made when you want power". This is true even in a turbo car. People just have to decide for themselves whats more important. I'm an enthuisast and race my car weekly. I've removed the ac belt off of every car I've owned until recently. Whenever you get in that car and hit the throttle you're going to forget about how hot it is outside!

Yeah, I'm sticking my neck out pretty far on some of this. I only know for a fact that 2 kits will be sold....mine and DaveB's. I know of about 3-6 other people who have said they are waiting for the dyno numbers before sending me a check. I know of about 10-15 more that say they want to see how well it works and what the final price is before thinking about.... I don't think ANYONE right now is going to place a deposit until a complete package is up and running. I don't blame them. It's hard to turn over money like that.

As I've said all along I'm not looking to get rich off this. I'd like to make a little money on each kit and at the $2695 price I can do that. At the $2500GB price I'm being generous and lets leave it at that! I'm probably only going to do 3 buyers at $2500 and the rest will be at the $2695 with a larger BD-11A blower. Powerdyne doesn't make anymore BD-600's and the BD-11A is a slightly larger replacement. The only main difference is that it will flow higher psi...where the Bd-600 tops out at 12psi the BD-11a will run about 15psi.

yeah, better than stock is huge understatement. Once you get this installed and dyno-tuned it's going to be a killer. The driving dynamic is whats going to be most important....I'm not concerned with peak numbers at all...I'm interested in how fast I'm going to be and how it affects the car in driving situations.

Im shooting to have the power and responsiveness of my 2.8 VR6 I had in the 'dub....but as the Pro is a lighter car it will take less power to achieve it and the driving dynamics will be stellar....if I can get a SOLID 170+ to the wheels it'll be a screamer!

yeah 170 to the wheels wont be a problem at all.

Hopefully DaveB will have the blower this weekend and be able to get me a couple test brackets so I can start fitting it in the bay. I really need a nice digi-cam so I can post you guys some pictures as I go along.

Also, I'm going to spend a butt-load to have the haltech professionaly dyno-tuned by a Haltech expert on my vehicle. The map will be saved on a floppy and included in the kit so you'll just have to upload the map and be done....Save you from having to dyno it any. Now if there are extreme elevation changes and things of that nature you may want someone to look at it but it won't be the countless hours spent fine tuning that I'll have to pay for!!

Yea, I've had a hard time sleeping the closer it gets to completion. I'm hoping it takes off and does pretty well but I've always hoped for the best and planned for the worst!

p.s. Anyone wishing to make a donation to the "Hurry-the-hell-up-and-finish-this" fund feel free. My paypal address is "perrymuk@bellsouth.net" No credit cards please....Also, buying the brembo rotors and my video games helps as well!!

Matty also take into account fuel variations when supplying your map, might want to tune to peak, then back everything off a bit to allow for gas variations by locale...I can get 93 octane everywhere here, but its all laced with ethanol..in Michigan I can get straight 91 octane, over in illinois I can get 103 race gas at the pump....then you have california with their piss in a pump gas :wtf:

Rism, I think my wife bought me a digi-camcorder for my birthday which is 9-2 so I may have VIDEO for you guys soon enough.

Also, you asked a question on the first page about an automatic transmission.... Good news. The Haltech F10X also controls the transmission during certain functions... shift points, shift firmness etc. DaveB has an auto P5 and he's going to be our guienna pig for you auto guys. He's in Ohio so he should have a good tune map that would be a little different than mine in Alabama.

Another neat feature of the haltech F10X is you can switch between two fuel maps on the fly....drive to the track on 87 octane, hit a button, fill up with 104, change your pulley enjoy an extra 50hp. :tit:

I was referring more to a be carfeull selling it with a "max tune" map, someone may blow it up because of lower fuel quality...