flat_black

Under the three grand mark is pretty good, given that all of the turbo kits for it mark above three grand. I'll talk to some of my contacts to see if any of them know of any cheap sources for superchargers. =)

Roddimus Prime

that would be awesome. I've spoken with Eaton, Vortech, Paxton and ATI. None are below $1200. I would rather stay away from the roots blowers after seeing what I've seen on mine, but it may be that the Eaton MP62 is the only affordable blower....I just hope I can overcome the TB problem.

Nutari

I'm thinking about 3,000-3,500$

Reasonable pricing range. Not too many people belive this can be done.

Roddimus Prime

it absolutely can be done. I bet if I had all of the needed supplies in front of me it could be finished in two weeks.

That, however, is the problem. I'm haing to purchase all of this out of my pocket and the cost of the supercharger (the first step in the process) is so expensive. I'm trying to keep this in everyone's bdiget range and even them I'm worried $2800 may be too high. Look at all of the people who are complaining about the AEM ($1400) being too expensive.

I was hoping to keep the supercharger kit to $2800 intercooled. Then for an additonal $1400 ($4200 total) You could add the AEM for unlimited control and flexability. Even at $4200 it is the same price as the Highboost kit and I bet the AEM is much more user friendly.

Roddimus Prime

After reading Ken's old supercharger thread on p5.com (Yes, I'm still on the other forum) I feel I need to make a comment about why I'm being wishy-washy about the choice of blower.

Originally I had stated I only wanted the MP45. I made this decision based solely on the compressor maps, ease of design in regards to the FMIC and intake plumbing. After hearing so much opposition from people who demanded (even though they won't commit to buy anything) the MP62. I re-contacted Eaton and discussed with them my concerns about the application. They assured me that an MP62 would be streetable and would provide a more "up-able" power curve should a buyer want to upgrade down the road. I agreed. After speaking with them for about an hour I had one of their design engineer's on the phone going over my ideas. It was then told to me that the Eaton blower would require the TB to be mounted to the blower inlet. That wouldn't have been a problem EXCEPT for all of the electrical wiring attached to the TB, the TPS, Purge solenoid, etc... There is no way to make this reach the front of the motor without cutting and splicing vital wiring harnesses. THIS IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. This goes against one of my very first goals. It must be bolt on with no modification.

p.s. a roots style blower inherently has a little higher ambient discharge temperature when compared to a centrifugal blower so it would make more sense to use a centrifugal blower for efficiency reasons.


p.p.s. I don't remember the ******* name who was giving me a hard time on the other forum, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. From the very begininng of this I've been very open with everyone about whats going and what I'm hoping to do. Still some people (mainly on the other forum only) seem to make it their business to discredit someone any chance they get. Remind me to add his name to the list of people who won't be getting a supercharger.

flat_black

Welp, of everyone I've talked to, NONE of them are able to give me any leads, amazingly! Turbos I can get, and are more than plentiful, but that's not what I need. =P I've still got a few people that I can hit up for leads, but I won't see or hear from them until next week, unfortunatly. I'll keep you updated, though.

Roddimus Prime

Sounds good. I can purchase the Eaton's now for $1K a piece if I buy 20 at one time....anyone want to front me $20K?? Also, using the eaton require some nasty wiring and modification. i'd rather stay away from them if possible...any roots style blower should be out of the question.

Paul, I saw your post on the other thread. It's half-right. The Eaton is actually the cheapest blower I've found but due to it's unusal airflow requirements I don't think it'll be the best choice for this application. You are right though about everything else. I'm not about to work this hard and long to price myself out of the competition. Thats just stupid! I've got to build reliable, cheap boost that almost anyone can install in their driveway. If I can do that then I think we'd have a winner on our hands.

sheesh, I can't believe people think this is some sort of hoax.

Roddimus Prime

p.s. If anyone notices in the pictures being posted of Area51's blower....there is no powersteering. this is obviously out of the question for me.

flat_black

Roddimus, any chance you know how you're going to run the pulley/belt? Right off of the crank, with an alternate/bolt-on outer pulley, or using a different belt for the alternator were the only two things I could think of, given that the other belt is already running two devices (AC compressor/PS pump). I don't know if that makes a huge difference, either in parasitic loss or in wear of the belts, but I thought I'd ask, 'cause I've sketched up a few tentative plans, and have been giving it intermittant thought. =) Centrifugal (Vortech or somesuch) blowers are cheaper, typically, than Eatons, though, aren't they? I suppose that the smaller packaging would make them more difficult to manufacture, so I could understand if they were more expensive, but I really have no idea. I'm going to take a few dozen shots of my engine bay today, and start sketching in detail, just for the hell of it, 'cause who knows, maybe I'll think of something that I can contribute. =)

rktktpaul

Don't make me get into it with you, too :-).

My point was the cost of the eaton blower vs. what you could pick up a turbo for "all day long" as you put it. It seemed to me that you were going to explore the possibilty of there maybe being a less expensive blower out there, or at the very least a manufaturer who could give you a better discount. I thought that the was the point of talking to ATI - to see if a better deal could be had. If Eaton is you're best deal, then so be it; its a name known by everyone. But when I posted on the other forum, I was not aware that the Eaton was your best deal.

Anyway, I know you want the kit to be PnP as much as possible, and I know its a little more work on your end, but what if the kit had a PnP wiring harness that moved all the sensors into the right position; or is that too far fetched?

Roddimus Prime

The supercharger needs to be run solely off the crank pulley. A custom pulley will have to be made that will require the belts to all come off the car. I am hoping that this will be the hardest part of the install for those people less mechanically inclined.

When building a supercharger system boost is measured and controlled based on 3 things, blower pulley diameter, crank pulley diameter and engine rpm. The more pulleys you add into the equation the less certain you can be of what is going on with the blower speed.


I had planned on running the shaft just under the coolant/power steering loop. If this isn't possible then I was going to relocate the AC line and eliminate the PS-loop. This should be realitivly easy once I have a core body I can use to start getting measurements.

Roddimus Prime

That is exactly right. It has to be cost effective and a good value. Remember, this is supposed to be a CHEAPER alternative to a turbo.


As for the wiring. Last I looked it appeared that the sensors are tied directly into the factory harness. There is no connection between the socket and the wiring harness...the only to get the extra length needed would be to cut into the factory harness and splice in extra length. I would like to avoid this at all cost. Also, the TB has to be replaced with a weird "butterfly-less opening" on the IM with the eaton since the TB is moved to the blower....with the centrifugal blower it stay in place....


Also, another great point about a supercharger is that it's not driven by exhaust gas which means that if someone wished to purchase the stage 2 NA cams they could leave them in the car and add the supercharger (for an AMAZING gain I'd bet) later. With a turbo car a cam has to be specially designed to aid in turbo spool and boost build-up. No worries with the supercharger.

rktktpaul

Really!? You would think that they would use a connector in order to simplify replacement if the sensor went bad. I know QC is probably pretty good, but I'm sure there still are failures!

Roddimus Prime

it's the harness thats the problem not the sensor...if a sensor fails they just unplug it and pop on a new one. I guess I could do that if I could get both female and male connectors for those plugs....how available do you think that would be?? not very I'm betting.

flat_black

It really depends on the connector and the sensor you're talking about; The O2 sensors would probably be somewhat easy to come by, whereas getting an EEC IV ECU connector is a royal pain in the butt... It all depends on who makes the connectors. I think in the case of the O2 sensor, it's probably Mitsubishi or Nippon-Denso or somesuch. But going that route would enable you to plug in the 'pass through', and source the signal from the stock sensor by splicing the wire into the pass through harness, rather than the stock harness, leaving everything intact. I have quite a few friends who work in electrical engineering, so I'm sure they could help with finding the apropriate connectors, depending on what you need for sensors.

Edit: In fact, look here: http://www.rpmoutlet.com/gmo2s.htm

I bet the Ford style is the same that we have. But it's hard to say without looking at both of them. =) But that just goes to show you that they ARE out there.

Another alternative is a factory style O2 sensor from Bosch or some company being used, spliced into, and offered with the kit, but that's bound to be more expensive.