More for less with no Explosions?
 

I'm pretty sure I've asked this question before and that is how much can the 2002 protege 5 engine handle before having to significally modify the engine structure. I look on here every so often and see people turbo'ing or supercharging their cars, but from what I've heard is that my engine rods will only handle 220 hp and 220 ft-lbs of torque. How true is this?

Along with the answer of that. How much could I get with a simple EPROM to 93 octane on my N/A engine? Because if the above is true concerning the internals on the engine. I want to give my car some more spunk without forced induction that would very realistically blow up my daily driver. :)

Any answers will be much appreciated.

220lb-ft IS about as high as you want to go on stock rods and stay reliable....that is absolutely true...Don't believe me...go on msprotege.com and do a search on the zoom-zoom boom club...all kinds of guys blowing their engines, and it's almost ALWAYS a broken or bent rod

you will NOT be able to just EPROM a mazda ecu. Do a search on this...it's been discussed to death....

Mazda: built with rods that make crystal look like titanium.

*cough*
only with the crapptastic FS
A proper motor like the zm or any of the mz's is much better
*/cough*

I saw a couple of topics on using a unichip instead of the eprom but no good information. I also don't plan on spending $3,000 to get an engine that I can start to build with this car from when im not planning on going over 200HP or 200ft-lbs of torque or forced induction.

What is then, the best, quickest, most stable way to take the engine and make it do 200HP? Without a Super Charger or Turbo. Cause if I go that route I'll want to be at 500-600HP.

I think you don't really know what you're getting into or asking..... spend some time in the community before you start making wild claims.

There are NO 500-600whp proteges....closest I've EVER seen is a 380whp car with about $10K in upgrades.

If you want an NA engine with about 180-200whp and GA emissions is not a concern for you then let me know. I'm slowly working on a NA package and I'm not too far away from you in B'ham.

^^^^Details please. Do I smell an affrordable rod and piston package?

Not sure of what claims i've made other than what I saw was that someone was using a unichip and a dyno to max out his engine. Nothing on eprom. Did see a lot about people blowing their engines and some guy that put a mitsu 4g63 ecu in his car. O.O

I am also very sure that I could hit 500-600HP in this engine if built properly. I'd probably get the reinforced engine but with 100mm rods instead of the 83mm by changing the crankshaft flatten out the cylindar heads for better combustion and stoke it. Maybe moving to a 2.3 or 2.4L with bigger injectors. Throw a T25 or something in it with a front mount air to water cooling system reduce weight and lost efficiency putting me at probably 7K worth of work. But I believe It could be done.

Though that is not the route I really wish to go with this engine. As stated before. I would simply like to hit 200HP and stay N/A with the least amount of money spent. Im anxious to see what you have worked out for the N/A engine Rod

NO way you could hit 500-600 hp with what you are talking about...first of all a T25 is going to max out at about 14-15 psi...it simply will NOT move enough air to produce that kind of power on an FS engine PERIOD.

Right now on a BETTER turbo than a T25, with WAY more money invested than 7k, people are BARELY hitting 350+ hp, and this is with a fully built bottom end, IHI VF22 pushing like 25-30psi, BIG FMIC, totally aftermarket engine management, big 440cc injectors, welded LSD

BTW, hitting 200hp NA is NOT so simple...I havent seen ANYONE do it yet, except maybe Tripoint, and they were going thru motors like crazy in SCCA

Yeah, Mike is right. The T25 is out of it's efficiency range at 16psi and a T3 will run out of huff about 21-23psi. My built 2.5L turbo ford with T3 @ 23psi made juist a hair over 300whp.

Not to get OT in this thread or not but the NA package I was working on is nothing more than a head swap and sold low-tech hotrodding. Think ITB's with full fuel and timing control and no ECU interference.

Well lets start here then.

Where can i get detailed information on the block makup?

what do you mean by block makeup ???

what specific info are you looking for ??? bore, stroke ?? cam profile ?? crank material ??

the material of the block is just cast iron as far as I know.....

Yup. Everything on the engine. The makeup, the sizes all of it. From what I've read is that a 93 626 carries the same engine. Theres an import from Japan that does 170HP (Which still is very little) And that there are very little parts available for it.

What were they thinking in making such a non customizable engine? From everything else I knew about Mazda engines I always thought they were de-tuned from the factory and could handle a 100HP / ft-lb torque increase with no problems by adjusting a thing or two.

I did find a rather nice artical on the mazda3 concering the intake manifold and how it was similar to the Integra GSR with the respect that you could program the ECU for air / fuel ratios to give it a little less torque and a good amount of HP.

But there seems to be a front mount cat that is causeing some of my HP issues I guess. So I think in all it leaves me to see if I can change a part or two out. Switch the intake manifold setting, alter the ECU to handle one Cat and pass emissions and move to a 93 octane.

Wonder if that would get me to a good HP amount without forced induction.

Type
FS-DE

Displacement
1991cc

Cylinders
4

Valvetrain
DOHC 16 valve, direct shim over tappet actuation, timing belt

Horsepower
130hp @ 6000r/min (SAE net)
[MP3: 140hp @ 6000r/min (SAE net)]

Torque
135lbs/ft @ 4000r/min (SAE net)
[MP3: 142lbs/ft @ 4500r/min (SAE net)]

Bore & Stroke
83mm x 92mm

Compression Ratio
9.1:1

Induction Type
Natural

Redline
6500r/min

Alternator output
12V 80A

Ignition type
distributor-less coil pack

Fuel system
Multipoint EFI

Fuel injector rate
285ml/min

Manual Transmission type
G15M-R

Valve Timing

Intake cam duration
230° @ 0.003"

Intake cam opening
2° BTDC

Intake cam closing
48° ABDC

Intake cam lobe height
43.700mm (1.7205")

Intake cam base circle
35.052mm (1.380")

Intake valve lift
8.6487mm (0.3405")

Exhaust cam duration
230° @ 0.003"

Exhaust cam opening
48° BBDC

Exhaust cam closing
2° ATDC

Exhaust cam lobe height
43.225mm (1.7018")

Exhaust cam base circle
35.052mm (1.380")

Exhaust valve lift
8.1737mm (0.3218")

Valve overlap
4°

What is the maximum known size I can bore the cylinder to up the piston ratio?

not much....most anyone has done to my knowledge was simply hone the cylinder in a rebuild....cylinder walls arent exactly thick...

this ain't no small block chevy

You can hit 200 whp on an FS NA. WHP remember not crank you need to make yourself clear here, it does take an awfull lot of work but it should be streetable. Its alot easier to make that much at the crank. What you really want to do is raise the rod ratio, so it can rev properly.

Now if you want that power easy what you need to do is the kl-ve v6 swap and enjoy the new found power. (it uses stock fs mounts)

it will be VERY hard to hit 200whp on an NA fs-de without some serious coin.

Look at twillightprotege and how much he's spent for his 160-ish whp or so....

ported heads ($1200)
custom ground cams ($400+)
4-2-1 header ($400+)
cam timing gears ($350-450)
Engine management to control fuel ($unknown)
built shortblock with custom piston/rods/crank ---- THOUSANDS



Just FYI, my IDEA (doesn't actually exsist yet)... is to remove the ECU fuel/timing control by replacing the head with an older probe/626 head with distributor and create a 4-2 intake manifold with a weber or OER sidedraft carb for fuel control. This would allow the user to tune fuel and timing as they wish and add Nitrous with the safety of a timing retard box.


think OER sidedraft carb, full timing control, MSD6AL ignition, 4-1 header, 4-2 intake manifold, j-spec cams and you'll have your 180-200whp on a STOCK BLOCK.

kl-ve v6 swap <-- That will fit right into the Protege 5 engine bay? Whats the $$ on this thing?

I may have asked the wrong questions. If I replace my pistons I need to choose a size or compression ratio to move to. Currently the engine runs a 9:1 and if I can get to a 12-14:1 on 93 octane I get a 10-12% increase in HP off the bat. What's the highest compression I can run for 93 octane?

If I keep reading right also, the intake manifold has a Long - Short setting where I can switch it to short and loose my below 3,000RPM HP and make more on the top end reving. Anyone heard of or done this?

I think with those two and replacing the pully systems with some lighter componets and maybe a clutch/flywheel change I might be in for a good start.

What in the world is a sidedraft carb? Are you suggesting adding a carboreutor system in the EFI ?? :)

Also What are the possibilities in switching / programming my ECU for 93 octane since ill need to pull the compression switch and all.

I also noticed that I have a front mount Cat and a rear Cat. Do they both have sensors and what can I do about getting rid of one? Possible to still pass emissions?

kl-de or kl-ze are mazda 2.5 liter v6, that will fit directly into the protege. . . on the mount side, you are looking at a full ecu overhaul complete with wiring. Kl-de is the us version of the v6 with lower compression making around 160 hp, you can yenk the thing out of just about any probe or mx-6, ive heard very good things about the motor handling boost. Basically you need a motor, tranny, axels and ecu plus a few other things.

The KL-ze is the jdm version of the motor that makes 200hp at the crank running higher compression a differance intake mani and a very differant ecu, same deal with the swap. . . shit tons of electical work.

You can do the complete swap into a protege for estimated around $4000 for the klze and a little less for the klde

Check out this link on the quebec forum, its got some good stuff on it including pics
http://clubprotegequebec.com/forums/...8777#post98777

The KL-ze would actually be a bit easier OBDI. So less wiring.

Installshield was able to do 200whp but he redid his bottm end and is running 93 octane @13:1 compression. The current thinking is to swap to the FP crank so it can rev easier. This should get you most of the way there, with tunning and rasing the compression. MAM is also releasing a destroked crank, were talking at least an 8000rpm redline.

Theres a bunch of guys running race pro's with 220whp using a microtech standalone, no idea what else they did, so its not inpossible. Which reminds me get a standalone ecu. THe stocker is garbage. Thats gonna be alot of power right there.

We do have a 2 stage intake manifold a single runner design would net a bit of power. There selling them over at protegegarage, its basicly a ported 626 manifold. Cams are gonna be a must whatever happened to the amazing wagner cams that were going to skyrocket power, I know wagner bad but it would have been a nice chunk of power.